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Topic: Glucosamine--Cosequin for equines..used on goats?  (Read 1742 times)
imalilbirdie
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« on: August 12, 2011, 08:12:00 AM »

Do any of you use the equine glucosamine MSM supplements on your senior goats?  If you do what brand do you use?  Where do you get it from?  How much do you give of it?  What breed are you giving it to?  What age? 

Here's a link to what is being considered to purchase..do you know any thing about this product used in goats?
http://www.jeffersequine.com/product.asp?camid=EQU&pn=2F-CD

A senior (5 almost 6 yr old) wether goat is showing signs of discomfort in his hips..was wondering if this would help rebuild the joints and cartilage in his hips. 

He is otherwise a very healthy well tended to goat..just showing signs of aging..wanting to help his aging process.

He is a bottle baby, proven CAE free, so that's not an issue. 

thanks in advance!
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~ Birdie ~
Sally P
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New Sharon, Maine


« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2011, 10:46:24 AM »

I don't know anythijng about that particular product; however I have used glucosamine with our goats.  I just get the "people" tablets and crush them up and add a bit of water.  Much cheaper and easy enough to do.
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imalilbirdie
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« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2011, 12:26:06 PM »

so then, human forms of Glucosamine w/msm is ok to use on goats? 

I wonder if they have the same 14,400 mg Glucosamine HCl and 2400 mg Chondroitin Sulfate in the human form to the equine form?  These are higher doses of glucosamine than even what I gave to Ringo (my dog) that was human form. 

This goat weighs maybe 290 or a little more.  He's a large breed goat.  Ringo before he got sick weighed 127 pounds.  I gave Ringo one per day..would I need to advise 2 per day for a goat weighing twice as much?
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~ Birdie ~
imalilbirdie
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« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2011, 12:34:00 PM »

I've pulled out Ringo's bottle of glucosamine w/msm...here's what it says...

Flex-a-min Super Glucosamine 2000 Plus is the name of it.  Per Pill it contains:

2000mg Glucosamine
1000mg MSM
60mg Vit C
4mg Manganese
5mg Sodium
6mg Boron (Sodium Borate)

For human consumption it says 2 pills per day with meals.

So for a goat, how much of this would you give?

With the link I've provided to the equine Glucosamine..that's a 4lb tub, that we would give 1/2 a scoop once daily for 2 to 4 wks, and then 1/4th scoop once daily for maintaining the joints.  So I'm not sure the human for would be cheaper..this tub might be expensive, but would last a long long time...the human pill bottle I have costed me $53.00 and it only has 60 pills in it, that would go exactly one month in human consumption.
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~ Birdie ~
Sally P
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« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2011, 01:36:07 PM »

I've even bought glucosamine in the dollar store.  You just add a couple of more pills to the mix and you'll find the same results as those expensive pills.
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dragonlair
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« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2011, 08:41:11 PM »

I use the powdered MSM and sprinkle it on their sweet feed. I buy the stuff made for equines for the horses, goats and dogs. It has no taste so they eat it willingly.
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DragonLair Farm and Kennel in Central Maine with Nubians, Lamanchas and Oberhasli. Of course, combinations of 2 or more breeds happens also.
imalilbirdie
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Southern Louisiana


« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2011, 08:44:03 AM »

Dragon, do they have it in the glucosamine w/msm for goats, horses, dogs?

Where do you get it at?  What's it called? 

Sally my research showed that not all glucosamine is the real stuff...in fact the dollar store brand is the synthetic of the real glucosamine.  When Ringo got really bad in his hips, I went on a search to find the real stuff, and the real stuff is not cheap..you can tell the knock off's by price alone.  They do not absorb the synthetic kind, it's like giving a pill for no reason, it just goes through the system without doing any good.

The last bottle of Ringo's real glucosamine came from GNC..it was $90.00 for a bottle of 60 pills and he got one pill a day.  You can tell the better brands, as they work faster, and maintain longer than the cheaper brands do. 

I don't think I truly want to feed the dollar store brand..it doesn't measure up to the better brands and the ingredients are not the same at all.  Sometimes cheaper isn't always better. 

I'd really like to advise this brand I posted on the link..I did a little research between storms yesterday and put two calls into the vets offices..my goat vet here in LA, and to LSU to Dr. Sobb..hoping to have a return call today. 
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~ Birdie ~
dragonlair
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« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2011, 10:22:21 AM »

You can get stuff made for horses (which can also be used for goats, dogs, cats, chickens...whatever) that contain all 3-MSM, Glucosamine and Chondroitin. Mostly it's a pellet, but they also make it in a liquid. Some add other things like Hyaluronic acid, yucca, vit C etc.

Check out Jeffers Equine and look up joint supplements. There are soooo many of them and all can be interchanged between horses, dogs and goats. I've used the MSM powder (actually it's kind of like little crystals) form various makers, the AniMed Glucosamine 5000 powder, the GlucoFlex Powder (glucosamine and MSM) and the AniFlex Complete that contains a bunch of different things.

Right now I am just using the MSM because I don't really have anyone with arthritis, it's more to protect and grow the cartilage, which I feel MSM does best for us.

There's like 6 pages in the Jeffers paper catalog of joint supplements, but it would be easier to look it up online I think.
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DragonLair Farm and Kennel in Central Maine with Nubians, Lamanchas and Oberhasli. Of course, combinations of 2 or more breeds happens also.
imalilbirdie
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Southern Louisiana


« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2011, 10:39:05 AM »

thanks Dragon...

Here's what the link I provided above states about this product that is being considered...

Cosequin® Optimized with MSM Powder
NutraMax Laboratories, Inc.

Same improved formula as Cosequin® Optimized with the addition of 10,000 mg MSM per 2 scoops. New formula with higher levels of active ingredients for improved joint health. Contains 14,400 mg Glucosamine HCl and 2400 mg Chondroitin Sulfate per 2 which is double the levels of the original Cosequin®.

Feed: 2 scoop per day per 600 lbs and up for 2 to 4 weeks then 1 scoop daily for long term administration.


What I'm thinking is..since this is 2 scoops per day per 600 pounds..this goat weighs around 290, so I'm thinking 1 scoop per day or 3/4's of a scoop per day for the first 2-4 weeks, and then cut back to 1/2 to 1/4th scoop after that to maintain.

Do you think this one is safe to use on the goat? 

This one below, has me concerned due to the fact it has avocado in it.. I haven't even considered this one..do you know any thing about it?

Cosequin® ASU
A new advanced equine joint formula brought to you by the makers of the #1 veterinarian recommended joint health supplement, Cosequin®.

Cosequin® ASU combines NMX1000™ avocado/soybean unsaponifiables (ASU and MSM with Cosequin's FCHG29®, glucosamine hydrochloride and TRH122® low molecular weight chondroitin sulfate to provide a broad spectrum and comprehensive joint health management formula for horses.


I haven't found any information stating either are safe for dogs, or goats. 
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~ Birdie ~
dragonlair
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« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2011, 10:41:36 AM »

Your dosages sound fine. The great thing with supplements like these is, even if you give over the amount, it's not going to hurt them, it will just waste your money.

From the sounds of it, they didn't add the entire avocado, just certain parts of the fat. I'm not really sure it's any better than the other types, but I bet its way more expensive! I don't see why it wouldn't be ok for goats.

Hmmm....If you really want to feed your animals avocado, it would be cheaper to give them guacamole! hehehe

Which one of your babies needs it? Is it one of the boys?
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DragonLair Farm and Kennel in Central Maine with Nubians, Lamanchas and Oberhasli. Of course, combinations of 2 or more breeds happens also.
Ace
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« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2011, 02:08:30 PM »

avacado/soybean unsaponifiables:

http://www.arthritismd.com/avocado-soybean-unsaponifiables.html

http://www.qualityhealth.com/arthritis-articles/avocado-soybean-unsaponifiables-arthritis

No particular rhyme or reason to these websites, just found a bit of information about ASU.

I would check the poisonous plant list to see if avacado is on it, otherwise, I think you'd be fine to give it to the dogs/goats.

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imalilbirdie
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Southern Louisiana


« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2011, 07:07:48 AM »

thanks for the links Penny...excellent advice as well..I do need to run the avocado through the plants list..that's something that totally slipped my mind.

It's my Taddy Dragon...As you know years ago when Taddy was only a year old, our boer buck (Timmy) beat him to a pulp.  Cracking his horn half way through the day before, he bled out really bad from that..then the next day, Timmy broke through the fence and got to him again, and finished off that horn, and dislocated Taddy's hip.  Taddy bled out again super bad..enough to need a transfusion but without his parents we couldn't do it..and we didn't have his parents.  So Taddy was rushed to the vet, where he put Taddy's hip back in place, and we wrapped that horn real good.  He was given three shots..1. Antibiotic shot, 2. Tetanus shot, and 3. a Banamine shot..where I kept Taddy in quarantine, and quiet for 30 days after coming home with him.  Taddy had to have his blood built back up as he went anemic on me, and we had to let that hip mend before he could go back out to pasture. 

Given this, we knew that eventually Taddy would start having issue with the one long horn, and one half horn..the half horn has not grown at all since the incident.  Not even a 1/4th of an inch.  While the other horn continues to grow with his aging.  Kiko's get extremely large horn racks on them.  The biggest I've seen is 4 foot wide..Taddy's is some where around 2 and 1/2 to 3 foot wide on that one side.  We knew years ago that Taddy would have to have that other horn shortened to prevent Paralysis in his neck down the spine of the neck.  Well that's not our issue.  That left hip is bothering Taddy now.  He's weakening in his cannon muscles of his hind legs.  He's standing up straight on his hind legs and is bending them just fine, but is standing too straight on them.  Not an ounce of curvature in his hind legs. 

Taddy is in some minor pain..not to the point of grinding teeth, just favoring it a little.  He still plays, he still spars, he still has vigor but you can tell in the video's he's not right, something is wrong. 

So, I've spoken with my goat vet down here in LA, who's advised me to contact the makers of the glucosamine to see if they could tell me if any or part of the glucosamine would harm a goat.  We've put Taddy on 4 days of Banamine, to remove any inflammation that might be there..if Taddy is still hurting after that 4 days..then we'll do an xray on his hip to see if it might have a slight dislocation in it.  If it does we'll have the vet repair it and I'll see if there is an animal massage therapist around Tracy to hire and bring out and do a week or so worth of massage therapy on him..but in the mean time, if it's not out of place, then I know it's time to get Taddy on some thing to rebuild and repair his joint and cartilages in his hips..so that's why I need to know what's best to give him.

I won't go cheap on this..sorry folks, the research I did on glucosamine with Ringo, clearly states and is factual that not all glucosamines are good, or absorb in the system the same way..I want Taddy on the best I can buy, the purest forms of glucosamine..grant you I don't want to spend $300 a month, but I know those 10, 12 and even 20 dollar stuff at the Pharmacy and Dollar stores are not going to work the same as the pure forms of glucosamine does.  I spoke with many human doctors as well as 5 Dog vets about the absorption and types of glucosamines..they basically all said the same thing.  My quest was to find the right glucosamine for Ringo..I did find that human glucosamine is basically the same as dog glucosamine, and it did work well on Ringo..giving him 2 pills a day (1 morning 1 night) for the first 4 weeks, and then to 1 pill once daily to maintain.  Ringo did excellent with the 90.00 bottle of Glucosamine/MSM that was completely all natural as opposed to the $53.00 bottle of Flex-a-mine...big difference in the ratio to absorb it..that's why I contacted all those people..that Flex-a-mine wasn't doing enough..but the GNC store here, had an all natural brand of Glucosamine/MSM and Ringo showed vast improvement in the first week of that glucosamine.  So there is a difference in them. 

This is not a "fool and their money soon departed"...this is me trying to be smart in what I'm giving my boy..if it's not going to work properly or completely then I'm throwing money out the door..yet, I want to be exact and spot on with what I give that it's safe and good for him.  This is my pride and joy I'm giving this to, Taddy is my every thing..my heart, my soul, my breathe, he's my baby..I've had him since he was 2 days old..my boy is now 5  and 1/2 yrs old..hard to believe he's aging that fast.

He's in the care of Tracy..and if she's worried about him, then I need to fix him, and take that worry off of Tracy.  I will do what it takes to help her, and my Taddy.  The big old lug, he's such a sweet heart, he doesn't know he's a goat, he thinks he's human.  Only a momma could love this boy..but I tell ya, I love him to pieces!! 
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~ Birdie ~
Sally P
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New Sharon, Maine


« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2011, 08:38:40 AM »

In this time of bad economy, many of us cannot afford the 'expensive' medications.  So the less expensive 'meds' work better than not using anything.  I know I wouldn't spend (or could even afford to spend) $90.00 on something that really has no guarantee that it will work or cure.
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dragonlair
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« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2011, 09:46:16 AM »

The Glucosmine comes from several different sources, some of which may not be good for a goat. If it's made for a horse, it should be fine. If it's made for a human or a dog, I'm not sure I would feed it to my horse or goat. Some forms are not even readily available to the human body, but since it's not really regulated by the FDA those companies can sell it.

If you're buying horse products, its going to last a lot longer if fed to a goat than to a horse, so it's more economical. I do start out with the cheapest and try it. If it works, fine, if not I try the next step up and so forth until i find the cheapest one that works and is of good quality.

Birdie, I thought maybe it was Taddy, because I remember what the poor guy went through. Massage and PT might help him too. Massage the legs from the back bone/hip down, followed by some manual movement of the joint, then do a little more massage. 15 minutes of that every day or so could help him an awful lot. Do both hind legs because favoring one leg will throw off the soft tissue of the other side.

Check on some of the anti-inflammatory herbs too you can feed in addition to the joint supplements. Ester C is a good one, not that it's an herb. Since he's still playing and all, that's good therapy for him too. The more active one is on their arthritic joints, the better the joints will be.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2011, 09:48:44 AM by dragonlair » Logged

DragonLair Farm and Kennel in Central Maine with Nubians, Lamanchas and Oberhasli. Of course, combinations of 2 or more breeds happens also.
imalilbirdie
Herdmasters
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Posts: 17315


Southern Louisiana


« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2011, 05:17:33 PM »

In this time of bad economy, many of us cannot afford the 'expensive' medications.  So the less expensive 'meds' work better than not using anything.  I know I wouldn't spend (or could even afford to spend) $90.00 on something that really has no guarantee that it will work or cure.

Sally, I didn't mean every one had/has to do what I'm doing, or spend what I'm spending on this.  I did a cost ratio per dosage, for both the human products and the equine products and I came out way cheaper with the equine than I did the human products, and I get more glucosamine per dosage, and more msm per dosage than I do in the human form.  It takes more pills to equal the amount in the equine dosage..now if it takes more human pills, to what it takes of the equine powder, then it's going to take 3 bottles to one tub of equine powder...those 3 bottles at $53.00 each would be $159.00 per month, and this equine product is $125.00 and will last me 6 to 9 months if not longer.  Over all the equine product is much cheaper with more glucosamine/MSM, Chondrotin and many other things that the human form does not have.  Plus it tastes like apple and they'll love it..hahaha. 

I'm not saying this as a stab at you Sally..what I am saying is..there is too much of a difference in glucosamines both human and animal form to go with the cheaper brands, and throw my money away..if it's not absorbed in the system then it's really throwing money out the window..and we won't if it's working or not until we try it. 

I'm probably going to order Taddy the Cosequin® Optimized with MSM Powder as that's what seems to be the best in my research.  I have to contact the makers and find out a little more about it before I jump this gun and do it.  I'll do that tomorrow.  I have spoken with some Equine owners here in LA who swear by this stuff for their jumpers and their race horses..saying it works well on their senior horses.  Now there are much better products out there..but this one is in my budget and I can afford it..the other ones over $150 to $200 I can't afford that, but I don't want my boy in pain, and I don't want Tracy worrying about it.
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~ Birdie ~
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