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Topic: A question about placing in showmanship  (Read 2384 times)
HillBilleBip
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Posts: 221


« on: August 12, 2013, 01:33:16 PM »

This past weekend we went to the 4H fun show so the kids could get in the ring with a judge for practice.  In the one class, there were 3  4Her's who were being judged on SHOWMANSHIP.  It was 2 females and 1 male who were showing their skills with their wethers.  The first female had another female helping her by telling her when and how to set her wether up for the judge.  Then the second one in the ring was the male 4H member who had no helper and did an awesome job.  The other female in the ring had no helper either and did pretty good.

Now here is my question: Showmanship is based on how well the child works with the animal, knows the animal, and knows what to do as far as setting up.  The little boy did an excellent job by himself and took 2nd place.  The judge gave the little girl with the helper 1st place, which confused me.  The reason I am confused is because, as you all know my son has autism and needs a helper.  2 seperate judges last year told us that my son will never take 1st place in Showmanship because the kids are to know exactly what to do and do it on their own, which makes sense and doesn't bother us.  So why did this judge place a person in first place when she wasn't doing the work all by herself?  I feel that little boy was robbed of first place (and no it wasn't my son, he didn't take his wether) and it was blatantly clear that the helper was helping the girl.  The helper even set up the legs herself while the girl held its head.  I am just scratching my head over this......could my son actually win 1st place then even if he has a helper????  Any thoughts??


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Sally P
Goat Genius
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Posts: 8923


New Sharon, Maine


« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2013, 04:38:16 PM »

Interestingly enough---we just finished doing a 4H show yesterday with SAndy judging and me running the desk.  Now as to placing at showmanship:  it isn't always the child who seems to "do" the best.  When the competition is very close it can be some little thing that knocks that child out of first place.  However---it can also be a placing so close that there is a tie for first.  That happened a couple of times yesterday.
I take it this was only for showmanship-=--they don't do Fitting.  Around here we do Showmanship and Fitting combined:  it just saves the 4Hers and their goats coming into the ring twice.
When (at least here) a Cloverleaf is showing a goat, they must have a "helper" with them.  The helper doesn't do any of the work---they just walk beside the younger child and hold the goat on a leash.  I'm not going to get into the arguments about that:  surfice to say:  I don't approve of that.
The only reason these 3 4Hers were in the same class must be because the judge didn't want to repeat classes of just one class.  There should have been four classes:  Senior, Intermediate, Junior, Cloverleaf and Novice.  That's what happened yesterday here---and one kid gets the same attention that four or five in a class receive.  I have seen Sandy judging a class of very young children down on her knees in the ring so that she isn't 'towering over them.  I have also seen her with very young children in the show ring asking them where the nose is; where the eyes are and easy questions like that.  After all--the idea is to encourage the children---not intimidate them.  The helper should not set the goat at all nor should the helper even touch the goat.  They are there only as a helping hand should the need arise.
Yes---at least around here, your son would have an excellent chance of placing.  No reason he shouldn't  There was a boy yesterday with a slight handicap---didn't make a bit of difference.
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taelir
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« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2013, 06:30:23 PM »

There could have been some big differences in what the 4-H'er said to the judge, too. It's hard if you can't hear what's being said (I know I never can). Around here, that can make or break your placing in showmanship for any species.
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HillBilleBip
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Posts: 221


« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2013, 11:29:16 PM »

This was just a fun show---Showmanship and market class only.  It wasn't like the Community Fair--where fitting, showmanship, and market are judged (fitting and showmanship are judged together).  I know it was just a fun and learning show (they have it so the kids get accustomed to the ring and learn how to show for the Community fair show) but I was told by 2 different judges that even if its just a practice run but awards are given out, that anyone who has a helper that touches the goat will NOT be able to win more than 2nd place in Showmanship.  That's why I was confused because my son placed last in Showmanship because he had a fellow 4-Her helping him and she had to touch the goat (even at the fun show he placed last). The girl who had the helper has no physical or mental disability where she would need someone who was physically setting up the goat for her.  So I guess what you are saying is that it just depends on who the judge is?
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HillBilleBip
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Posts: 221


« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2013, 11:34:19 PM »

The 3 4-Her's that went against each other were 9,10,11 year old age group.  They were considered the Junior showmanship class.
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Sally P
Goat Genius
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Posts: 8923


New Sharon, Maine


« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2013, 07:38:08 AM »

Around here, Junior ages would NOT have helpers with them.  The only ones helpers are present with is the Cloverleaf.
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sweetgoats
Herdmaster
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« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2013, 01:55:33 PM »

  I just judged a show and showmenship.

  It is really up to the judge, now last year they judge said your son will never place first because of a helper, but this years judge might not have the same feelings.  I know one of the girls I judged and have judged her has Cybil pulse.  She has had years that she does a GREAT job showing, keeping her goat set up, knowing her parts and sonforth, this year I hated to do it but she got second to last.  You don't think it was not hard to watch her cry in the ring?  that broke my heart.

  I announced to the crowd, that Showmenship is my favorite to judge because that is really the kids working, I saw parents "fitting" the goat as the kids were off and about.  OK if I went just on how clean the goat was then that is not fair to the kids I saw doing it themselves.  I judge on eye contact, aware of where I am, keeping the goat set up at all times but not spending SO much time doing so, knowing any question I might throw out at them part, feed, shots or whatever I feel is age appropriate.  That is a real showmen.

  I also explained that when the judge takes "forever as someone in the crowd said about the judge before me" take that as a complament.  That means we are having a hard time and them kids are pretty darn good. 
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Lori

Home of the Colorado State Fair Grand Champion doe, 2003,2004,2005,2007,2008,2009. and 2011.
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