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Topic: Help on breed!  (Read 2125 times)
TaKara
Bouncing Babies
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Posts: 68


« on: June 13, 2016, 07:59:20 AM »

My 6 year old daughter decided that she wanted to join 4H this year and show goats. We purchased a pregnant Boer and lost the baby. We were told that we needed to get another goat to go with Lillie Belle. In the hopes of keeping her alive (she went down hill quickly after the baby died), we went to the Sale Barn with the intentions of getting another Boer. However, my daughter had to bid to on this adorable little goat(Annabelle). To her excitement she bought the goat. Annabelle wasn't suppose to be a show goat just a pen mate until we could find a better quality goat. However, after a couple days my daughter had her leading and setting up. She insisted on showing her without caring if she won anything or not. (She's got her heart set on Showmanship.

We have no idea what Annabelle might be. Any ideas?

She doesn't seem to be getting bigger...only fatter...
 
Thanks for any and all help!
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TaKara
Bouncing Babies
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Posts: 68


« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2016, 08:22:44 AM »

Here are some pics of Annabelle
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imalilbirdie
Herdmasters
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Posts: 19205


Texas


« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2016, 12:06:07 PM »

Howdy Takara...welcome to Goatbeat.  Nice to have you with us and happy to see the goatie bug has bitten you all...hahaha.  Like most of us here, we're all goat-a-holics and have a serious problem with saying "no more goats", well it's "no more goats" until the next "I can't live without that goat" comes along.   Grin Grin

Annabelle, is a pretty little thing for sure.  Looks a little Nubian'ish to me.  Yet, looks a little boer'ish as well.  The cross of the two maybe?  She sure is a pretty little thing.  Looks good and healthy to be going through a sale barn for sure.  Just keep a close eye on her for any shipping distress that comes from those sale barns.  But, Your daughter has a good eye for cuteness for sure and like she said, who cares if she wins or not, she's there with her pride and joy, and that's what counts..enjoying being with other goats, learning to compete and take care of her goat...that's what it's all about and that's what it should ALWAYS be about.  Teach our children, rather than have them thrive for the win.  I'm real proud of your daughter for sure.

Congratulations on your new goats, and welcome to GB...hope to see a lot of you in the future with more updates on how it's going. Smiley
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~ Birdie ~
Julie H
Goat Genius
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Posts: 1569


Missouri


« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2016, 12:51:26 PM »

I couldn't make the pictures bigger so I will go with Birdie on the possible breed.   That is the beauty of 4-H as they have crossbred classes and goats don't need to be purebred.  My son showed a Nubian/ Boer cross that we bred and she won that class and the grand champion class against all the other cross breds.  We were thrilled to say the least  Roll Eyes

Welcome to goatbeat!

I might add that we started with 2 Nubian bottle kids for my son to show.  He has long since given up the goats but somehow I have 21 does of my own  Huh?  Funny how that happened.  Hope you have plenty of room.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2016, 12:54:05 PM by Julie H » Logged
nancy d
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Posts: 5994

N.W. WA


« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2016, 12:55:09 PM »

What an adorable goat! Yep, I'd say Boer Nubian cross.
The do go through periods of time where they  fill out then up.
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TaKara
Bouncing Babies
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Posts: 68


« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2016, 01:10:39 PM »

Thanks! My kiddo has gotten the "Goat bug". In fact she just spent her entire piggy bank on 2 new babies! She insisted on going to the Sale Barn after her tball game! (Our local Sale Barn has some good animals and the owner is good about pointing out the good ones that are run through.) She is now up to 5 babies. Her little Nubian is a mess and refuses to lead. She blames me because it is so tiny that its easier to carry it than lead it.

We thought Annabelle might be a Nubian/Boer cross but she just doesn't seem to be growing. And the judge at her first show wasn't impressed with Annabelle to say the least. We were told we weren't feeding her properly because of her size. So we changed feeds and have wormed but still no growth spurt. Except getting pudgy! Oh well she's the sweetest, most demanding little thing I have ever met.

I appreciate all the help I can get. This goat business is all new to me and honestly...I didn't even like goats until we got our first one and had to baby her back to health.
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dragonlair
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Posts: 9376



« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2016, 03:20:47 PM »

How old do you think she might be? Old enough to have accidentally gotten bred? Or, maybe she has Nigerian or Pygmy in her that would make her a bit on the smaller side?

Have you had a fecal run on her to check for worms and cocci? Both of those can cause a young'un not to grow properly.

Showing is great for kids, teaches them so much about winning and losing and animal care and responsibility.

Welcome to GB!!!!!
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DragonLair Farm and Kennel in Central Maine with Nubians, Lamanchas and Oberhasli. Of course, combinations of 2 or more breeds happens also.
imalilbirdie
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Posts: 19205


Texas


« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2016, 04:46:13 AM »

The one thing I think "I" personally would shy away from is trying to teach a baby who's way too young to lead on a leash.  Ya know their tiny little neck bones and spine hasn't set real good when they are really young and tugging and pulling on their necks could break their necks.  So maybe just take it easy on those little ones.  I know they need to learn to lead, but a very young baby can get seriously injured trying to teach them.  They are fearful and scared coming straight from the sale barn, so give them a little time to adjust and settle in before we man handle them (so to speak).  Tell your daughter it's better to make friends with them first, then ask them to do something that they are more reluctant of doing.

I agree with Dragon...Goats who go through sale barns typically come out of there with some kind of illness/disease.  It's virtually impossible to keep illness's and diseases out of sale barns.  I always quarantine any animal that comes from a sale barn for at least 2 weeks if not longer.  I always have fecals done, check to see what worms they have (and I'll guarantee you they'll have worms after the stress of a sale barn), and if they have contracted cocci from the sale barn (which is also stress induced).  There are so many factors of what you'll need to watch for when bringing babies home, especially from the sale barn.  If you can, it is really best to buy straight off the farm.

Inbreeding, breed sizes, improper care, all contribute to the size of a baby goat and how well it grows out.  Nubian breeds are not muscle bound goats, they are dairy breeds, and maybe your little Annabelle is going to be more like the dairy breed that's in her?
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~ Birdie ~
TaKara
Bouncing Babies
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Posts: 68


« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2016, 07:01:21 AM »

We guessed on Annabelle's age when we got her with the help of our 4H leader. Our guess would put her at 6 and half months. We have had her since the 31st of March and we don't have a Billy.Oh lordy...Is there a chance she could have gotten bred before we got her? I know we were told that ideally you shouldn't breed them until they were a lot older...She isn't making a bag and I have no idea what else to look for other than getting fat...

No, we have not had a fecal run. We were told to check her eyes for color. They were very pale so we have been treating her for worms. Her coat is getting very shiny but not much color has returned to her eyes yet. I have checked her potty and there were worms in it (the things we do for our kids both human and animal!). I didn't have time to check yesterday and haven't been out this morning yet. I guess we need to have one run on all our babies.

Just this week we started leaning toward her having some Nigerian in her. I would like for my daughter to know how she should respond to the judge when ask the breed. We told her Nubian last time but we were thinking maybe she should acknowledge that Annabelle is a cross when the judge asks...

The new babies are away from our other 3. I will be sure to keep them away for a couple more weeks. They aren't tame enough yet to turn them out with the others yet anyway(my opinion). I don't like to chase critters down! I like them to come when we call them! Gosh, I didn't know Sale Barns were so bad...but it makes since. Scared babies, sick babies, all threw in together.

Oh good...I can keep carrying our littlest one around! She's a doll! She actually came from Husband's uncle. They thought she was too much work. She was tiny but they had already taken her off milk. I wish we had tried to bottle feed her but again we had no idea (and still don't) what we were doing. She eats like a little pig both grain and weeds/grass.

My daughter is learning quickly about responsibility (she's never really been held accountable for much). She gets up every morning to feed and feeds every night. She has been involved with all meds we have administered and was involved in trying to save the baby we lost. She sat with our big goat as much as she could after the baby died to keep her company. 

This goat business is tricky! I really appreciate all your help. Goats seem to require more attention than other animals. We are learning quickly but not quick enough to keep up it seems...
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imalilbirdie
Herdmasters
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Posts: 19205


Texas


« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2016, 04:34:37 AM »

Ok, now, we have a whole new ball game with this little girl if her eyelids are pale or whitish.  That's Anemia, and anemia can kill faster than what actually caused her to be anemic.  You need to give her a dose of infant baby vitamins (or childrens vitamins if she'll eat the pill) that has iron in it.  Now, here's where this gets really tricky...Iron can be overdosed, so be very careful with that.  If you take her to a vet (which I highly suggest that you do), some vets feel that giving an iron shot is the best way to go...some vets do not realize that iron can be overdosed in these goats, and they give a large dose of it, and that will kill that goat within a few hours.  So, if at all possible, stay away from the iron shot unless you have a goat vet that knows what they are doing.  If you decide to go with an iron shot, I would say no more than a 1/2 cc' to that little girl.  Maybe less even. 

However, you do have to get her through that anemia, or she will wither away and eventually die.  You can use the childrens vitamins/infant vitamins w/iron, once daily until the eyes turn pink again.  Or you can use redcell, typically we start dosing that once a day and if they don't respond in a few days we start dosing twice a day but again, watch the eyelids and don't give too much all at one time.  Spinach leaves, they are natural iron, but don't mix them with your other treatments.  Geritol Tonic (the liquid geritol), given once daily is another way you can treat her anemia.

If you have not wormed that girl, then I highly suggest that you do.  Use a good safe goat wormer...
Dectomax, Ivomec, Cydectin Sheep drench, are all good safe goat wormers that it's hard to overdose one using these three.  If she has a mass infestation of tape, round, pin or hookworms then you'll need to dose Panacur or Safeguard once daily for 5 days, dosing 1cc per 10lbs of body weight. 

There is a lot to learn about goats...and yes, they can be a huge worry until you get them established and going good.  Once you get them on their feet and doing well, they aren't really that hard to care for.  It's knowing the things they need, such as at minimum 14% "digestible" protein (big difference in digestible protein and crude protein), copper (goats has to have copper), and selenium (if you're in a selenium deficient area--you need to supplement this to them).  The lack of protein, copper and selenium will make a baby or adult unthrifty of and unhealthy...so we need to monitor those three things.  Proper worming regimen, using the proper de-wormers.  And you've got it made.  Other than knowing the poisonous plants, that's all there is to raising goats.   Smiley
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~ Birdie ~
TaKara
Bouncing Babies
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Posts: 68


« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2016, 06:55:41 AM »

At my brother-in-laws recommendation we have the Ivomex for worming. He said to give about a pea size amount to her every 5 days. Is that correct?

We have the Red Cell and Iron Shots. We gave an iron shot last week but didn't give her much for fear of overdosing. She is easy to deal with so I can give the Red Cell without my husbands help. I will go check her in just a bit and give her dose. I am off during the summer so I can monitor her as much as needed right now.

We don't have a vet close by that deals with goats. I called several to check out our big lady after she lost the baby and ran into dead ends. The best I got was you can bring her in and I will see if I know what to do. Ugggg.... Sad

I will also check her feed labels to be sure it has the correct "stuff" in it. She doesn't eat a lot of her feed. We turn them out during the day and she loves her weeds and bushes.

Could the anemia issue be what is causing her to get so pudgy?

Thank you so much for all your help. Again, I appreciate all the help I can get.
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Julie H
Goat Genius
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Posts: 1569


Missouri


« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2016, 01:18:15 PM »

Any goat I have ever had dealing with Anemia is anything but pudgy .  Is she hefty all over or is her stomach large in comparison to the rest of her?  I usually give Redcell at 3 ml/cc per dose once daily with no issues.   I wish I could see your pictures so we could see the shape of her body. It might help.

Have you used tinypic.com?    it allows you to take them from your computer and they come in nice and large.

Maybe try and get a front , side and rear view of her for us so we can see if she is indeed pregnant.
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TaKara
Bouncing Babies
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Posts: 68


« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2016, 03:20:45 PM »

Her tummy looks big to me but she is so short! The rest of her looks normalish to me. She is for sure fatter than our others. She didn't look as big this morning. But after turning them out and just checking them, she looks like a pudgy thing again. I will try to get pics in the morning and attempt to get them to upload. I had a ton of trouble uploading the ones I did. I kept getting told they were too large.
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TaKara
Bouncing Babies
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Posts: 68


« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2016, 03:31:01 PM »

Here' one I posted but I cut my kiddo out and tried to lighten it up. Maybe it will open for you. I know its only from the side...
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imalilbirdie
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Posts: 19205


Texas


« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2016, 04:57:05 AM »

I don't think she's bred.  What I think is one of two things or maybe both...

1. She goes out and eats her fill of forage/graze each day and comes in with a full rumen, and looks like her tummy is pudgy.  That goes down as the food in her stomach digests.

2. She has worms, and from the worms she's gotten a pot belly on her.  I have a feeling it's the worms that is causing her to be anemic.  Ivomec is a good wormer for her, but it's not dosed every 5 days.  It's dosed 10 days apart.  And 2 doses max.  Dosing 1cc per 50lbs of body weight...In severe cases it can be dosed at 1cc per 30lbs of body weight, but the second dose is dosed at 1cc per 50lbs.  Wormers cause side affects in the liver, so we sure don't want a liver issue from dosing too much of it.  Although, I have to admit, I just sent a rescue baby to a new home, and we had MAJOR issues with worms...every worm you could imagine except the whip worm and barber pole worm this poor little baby had.  I dosed the Ivermectrin first thing...I waited 3 days and with the amount of worms she passed, I started dosing the Safeguard at 1cc per 10lbs of body weight for 5 days, after that regimen I waited 2 days and gave her the Ivomectrin again.  Still did NOT clean out all the worms, and she indeed went anemic on me.  Took her to the vet and again, more live and more dead worms in her...so we put her on a 5 day regimen of Panacur and finally, we got them all.  That poor baby passed a 12" long worm out of her.  Her belly was huge, yet she was emaciated and bones showing on the rest of her body.  It took 3 weeks to get that poor little baby feeling better.  And that was working on her night and day.  My feed table looked like a virtual Pharmacy.

I definitely would not give her more Iron...if you gave her the Iron shot, you need to give that time to run through her system and her system to respond to it.  Giving Redcell along with an iron shot would definitely be a huge risk.  There is no recovering an overdose of Iron.  When did you give that Iron shot and how much did you give?  I can't say I'm a lover of the Redcell.  I think it takes too long to do it's job and the goat gets weaker and weaker in the process.  I have to say, I like the infant baby vitamins w/Iron added.  And with that last rescue baby I had, we went two ways with her...in the beginning we used the Nutri Drench, and then switched to the infant baby vitamins w/iron.  Dragonlair told me to mix that with a dab of Dark Karo Syrup (molasses and dark karo syrup has some natural iron to it as well), just a drop worked great.  That baby begged for it, and sucked it down out of the syringe like it was her bottle.  It worked pretty quick indeed.  Her eyes started back with colors of pink in a few days (we dosed twice daily), so I went to once daily dosing and in a few days they were back pretty pink, and I stopped the treatments for fear of overdosing.  Should have went a few more days though, as they went back light pink again...so I gave it once daily for 2 more days and she was good to go.

Not having a goat vet or a vet that can administer the things you can't...that's tough business now.  I couldn't find a goat vet here either, until I found one with this last rescue baby...he's simply amazing and I'm so blessed to have found him.  Some Vets do try though, so in a pinch, put your knowledge together with a vet who is at least willing to try, and get your goat taken care of.  In a worse case scenario, you need a vet, any thing is worth a try.
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~ Birdie ~
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