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Topic: Paranoia time!  (Read 310 times)
cbdale
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« on: June 13, 2017, 12:21:15 PM »

Well, about 4 weeks, and another fear for my Boer doe to kid.  She is having 3 again, and bid as a barn.  I sweat having to pull one again.  I hate not to feed her triplets, just hate the  toxemia possibility.  I have her on two cups of Noble, and a lb of Alfalfa pellets twice a day, with hay/minerals, and a  protein block.  I gave less Alfalfa last time, and after reading several books, some say stop the Alfalfa last 4 weeks, some free feed the Alfalfa, some say 2 lbs a day of Alfalfa, and a cup of corn (I know the neg of corn). 
  What say you gals  with Boers, or large goats in the last 4 weeks on Alfalfa, and feed?  I gave her copper oxide rods (copasure) about 1&1/2 months ago; however, her coat is ok, but she still carries a 'fishtail' to me. Should I give more copasure ( Is this the best bolus of copper oxide?) She always mates at night (shy gal), and I do not know the exact time she mated.  This is my last time if she shoulder blocks again.  It is hard to get the vet in time.  I am  going to feed at AM, and PM for morning kidding( so some say). My goats will not drink ACV at all.  I wish I could have 7lb kids, and not 10 pounders.  Ok, I want to know the gospel on these last weeks-- Yehaw
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Julie H
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Missouri


« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2017, 01:34:03 PM »

I used to feed alfalfa hay exclusively to my boer goats in MN and always feed grain year round but increase it the last month of pregnancy ( a little).  I have been fortunate to have no stuck kids  in the 10 years I have been doing this.

Now I feed a grass mix hay and add alfalfa pellets to my feed ration I mix.

Last year my herd queen (who is 9 ) had a huge 16 pound single buck with no problems at all.  This year her single buck was a bit smaller at 12 pounds , but again no issues.

Another 2 older does were getting 2 -16 oz containers of feed AM & PM just because they need the calories  . One had triplets one had twins and the kids were good sized but not overly so. No issues with births.

I myself don't want them obese but I want them in good flesh so they don't start out nursing underweight.  I hope you have better kidding this year and if this is a yearly thing with her I wonder if it is a conformation issue and if she is too narrow to be able to deliver correctly? 
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dragonlair
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« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2017, 02:54:14 PM »

I feed alfalfa pellets year round, even to my Boers when I had them. I make sure they have at least a 2:1 calcium phosphorus ratio overall. My girls get about 2-3 pounds a day the last month before they kid. I want to make sure they have plenty of calcium in their diet. Low calcium can mean weak labor and long deliveries.

I feed grain year round, the amount and protein % varies with stage of lactation and amount of milk produced.

I feed  a 16% protein feed in the last month and add fat to their diet so it is around 5%. That helps with energy without causing founder. I never feed corn, I've seen way to many goats founder on corn. I won't feed a higher protein than 16% because of kid growth. 5% fat (at the most) will keep the doe in good condition without causing extra fetal growth.

Sometimes the fish tail never leaves, the lack of copper can cause permanent damage to the hair follicles, or it is very long in growing back in. I wouldn't give her any more right now.

If it were me, I'd remove the protein block. If she gets a lot of that, it can cause kids to grow large before birth.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2017, 02:58:10 PM by dragonlair » Logged

DragonLair Farm and Kennel in Central Maine with Nubians, Lamanchas and Oberhasli. Of course, combinations of 2 or more breeds happens also.
cbdale
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« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2017, 05:17:30 PM »

They will hardly touch  the protein blocks.  They love the A pellets, and Noble, with a touch of BOSS.  I read also in another book, that it takes approx 5 lbs of dry food for a 130 lb doe with  triplets.  I assume that is feed and Alfalfa. My Boer doe has good  conformation, long, and good teats.  I am going to go with 2 lbs of Alfalfa pellets, and 2 cups of Noble twice a day. Probably better on high side of Alfalfa than feed. I am throwing in 300mg of Vit B 1, a Folic acid tab, a few raisins for sugar, a few Honeynut Cheerios for oats, and a Vit B 12 tab daily.
 My Kiko sire, is still limping on his right foot, whereby the Vet came by, and gave some Biomycin, and said he had a split in side of hoof. This is after a couple of months ago the Vet came by, and we found a long stone embedded into  his hoof causing the limp.  He did not sound encouraging about the goat's condition, or coming back. Not many good goat vets abound here.  I am spraying the hoof with a mixture with Biomycin, and am thinking of getting some Biotin, and giving 30mg with 2 ounces of hoof conditioner from LFS, and see if it will help the hoof to heal.  i may try some super glue on split.  He is a lovely Kiko, winter coat gone, and great horns.  He is even calmed down from rut to behave himself.  Fingers crossed
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imalilbirdie
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Texas


« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2017, 05:54:41 AM »

I don't think it's what you're feeding at all.  Yeah you might be feeding a tad too much but what you're feeding is fine.  I have to say this Charles...the issue with head locked kids, can also come from the genetics of the animals being bred.  Such as, some where in that Boer Doe's past is a head lock issue.  Maybe she is the daughter of a Buck that threw head lock issues.  Or there is the possibility, though it would be rare, that your buck himself, may be throwing head lock issues....or there is a distinct possibility that your Doe has a narrow pelvic and can't birth these babies without assistance, and that's what I'm thinking is happening.

Pregnancy Toxemia, is a bad thing, but if you drastically cut her back on any thing right now, you'll sure as the world throw her into pregnancy toxemia.  Just cut her back a tiny amount.  If she's due to kid in the next week or so, the damage of large kids is already done....those babies gain their weight in the last week to 2 weeks before birth.  I don't think you're over feeding by too much...but I never fed any type of alfalfa pellets to my goats.  Grain and grass hay (mostly Bermuda hay) is all my goats got.  Loose minerals as well.  No protein buckets, no alfalfa pellets or hay...just plain simple diets.  I think at times we forget that forage is their greatest nutritional need.  Not the grain.

I didn't give B vitamins unless it was needed or called for.  I think what you're forgetting here, is that B vitamins, stimulates the appetite and thus causing your girl to eat more and more.  I would stop all that if I were you.  That Doe isn't weak, sick, off food, or has any other issue...she doesn't need all those added B vitamins.

After loosing 2 goats to listeria...I do not give any type of treat stuff to my goats, except on a rare occasion that they have visitors of the human kind and then, it's only a ritz cracker and very few of those.  I didn't loose Hanna because of what "I" gave her...I lost Hanna because she found an old acorn in the pasture and she ate it.  Every thing else we had tested, hay, grain, grass, soil, and water...nothing came back positive for listeria...that was the only other rational thing it could have been.  But I did loose Socks to what started out as Polio, and went into Listeria and Listeria is what killed her...that came from giving a honeydew melon rine...point is, stop giving all those extra tid bits of stuff to those goats. 

You can over dose the iron supplements...if that goat doesn't need the raisins, and her iron level is high already...giving even a few, can overdose her.  I only gave my goats, the raisins after they birthed and had lost lots of blood in the birthing process...then they only got 3 or 4 on top of one feeding of cooked oatmeal...the next meal of cooked oatmeal was with banana's, and again, very few of them.  They only goat cooked oatmeal if they had birthed.  Never before it.  If I had a sick or weak goat, they got cooked oatmeal to help boost them up.  I think, in my personal opinion, without sounding snotty, snide, hateful or bossy...I think you're feeding too much of the supplemental stuff.

As for the copper, I would not give her another copper bolus. She may not have grown the hair back from the fish tailing she had prior to giving the bolus.  I would not overdose that if I were you.  Yes, the bolus's that you're giving are the right kind.

All in all, Charles, you have a good healthy herd...now lets let their own immune system work for them.  You'll see a big difference in cost of keeping them up, and see that you don't need all these other things you're giving them.  Goats have strong wills of survival...replace all these additives/supplements with some forage leaves (make sure they are leaves they can have that aren't toxic), and you'll see those goats do just dandy on less feed, and still maintain a nice body weight. 

Your buck...if you can soak his hoof in Epsom Salts water once daily for at least 10 to 20 minutes (if you can...I know that's going to be difficult)...that might help his hoof.  Did the vet check him for founder?
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~ Birdie ~
cbdale
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Posts: 256


« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2017, 09:28:46 AM »

Yes, I am thinking it could be genetic; however,  I thought the Boer usually was the culpret in locks.  I do not give the B vitamins daily; however,  I know the Folic acid prevents  cleft palate,  and unused B  vitamins are secreted in urine. Most feed will not always assay as labeled. The goats love the cheerios, which only give once in a while.
 Iron is highly needed in pregnancy-- such as in women, we always gave pregnant women an iron capsule daily, but I don't the amount needed for a large goat.  I only give a few raisins a week.
 The oats in Cheerios I had read was good in last stages of pregnancy.  I just gave a handful in the last couple of days--should not be a problem.
 The Kiko buck will not let me dip his foot, and I have to spray the food when he eats.  I like the bleach/water 1/2 to 1/2, then spray with peroxide, apply Epsom salt-mixed with 1/3 Betadyne,1/3 Iodine, 1/3 ACV-- if no Iodine, I use Boric Acid powder dissolved in alcohol.  I just can't be sure how much I am getting into the hoof.  I am going to try the 30mg of Biotin to add to food-- I have nothing to lose.  If he loses the hoof, I guess he will have to be put down--or seemed the Vet's attitude.
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dragonlair
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« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2017, 11:40:33 AM »

A good thing to soak/spray on the hoof is copper sulfate mixed with water. It helps toughen the hoof and kills fungus and such that may be hiding in there. It is not absorbed into the body, so it will not cause an upset in the mineral balance.

I've had goats with split hooves before due to the soggy mud in the spring. I would trim as short as I could, trimming around the split, cleaning it really well and spraying with the copper sulfate spray (you can buy Kopertox made for horses, it's sort of the same). I feed kelp to my goats and horses to help with hoof condition (among other things) but kelp is a lot cheaper up here because it is harvested less that 30 miles from my door. However, you can buy and feed horse hoof health supplements to your boy to maybe help stimulate the hoof to grow in and heal the split.

If you can handle him ok, and it's not really damp weather or ground, maybe you can dry and place some sort of packing between the cleats and then duct tape his hoof to stabilize the split? I had to do that with a dairy cow one time and it worked great.

Research is showing a huge link between low calcium and pregnancy toxemia/ketosis in goats and cattle. Many years ago, someone decided that cutting back on the calcium stopped milk fever. Farmers everywhere started limiting the calcium intake of their cattle only to lose even higher numbers to toxemia and milk fever. Ag colleges started doing more research into it and found that cutting back on calcium was dangerous and to make sure the animal did get some sort of calcium in her diet towards the end of her pregnancy. Low calcium causes weak/sluggish labor, stalled and difficult delivery and muscle spasms/muscle weakness in the doe.
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DragonLair Farm and Kennel in Central Maine with Nubians, Lamanchas and Oberhasli. Of course, combinations of 2 or more breeds happens also.
cbdale
Caprine Guru
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Posts: 256


« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2017, 08:35:58 PM »

Yes, I  know that in the past, it was always best for adding calcium at end of pregnancy for my dogs.  The gal in Texas, (Suzanne), states to reduce the Ca the last few weeks, and others feed the Alfalfa by free choice daily.  They pig out for first couple of days, then back to normal.  I haven't tried free choice on the Alfalfa; however, I am giving more than last kidding.  The book by Gail Bowman, recommends more Alfalfa last month.  It always results in what works for you, and why change?  I will find my place one day, and stay with it. 
 I asked the Vet about bandaging my Kiko buck's foot, but he did not think it was worth doing.  He was not very impressive about goats. I am using the horse foot supplement per TSC store, but it will only have a small amount  of Biotin( I need 30mg per dose) as I adjust the amount  to give from a horse to a goat.  It may be best just to give the horse dose to get the 30mg-- 6 ounces.  This has worked wonders for my two Jennies, as their hoof start to chip, and in two to three weeks, I can tell a good difference in hoof status.  I have to get the hoof to heal/mend, and this may be best way; however , when in town , I will try  to find some Biotin tabs, to up the amount per dose for a goat. It seems goats always take a larger dose than larger animals.
 How much Kelp did you give, and did you soak the Kelp to feed?
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imalilbirdie
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Texas


« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2017, 05:37:34 AM »

Charles...I sure do commend you for all that you put into your goats, and all the dedication to them.  You're a good goat daddy.

However, I do think you are making more of this than needs to be.  I know you want to give your goats the best you can give them, and I highly respect that. 

But seriously, this fine science that you've made of all this, the books you've read, the people you've spoken with (including us here in GB--we want you to talk to us though, that's what we're here for)....all this is getting you confused, and rattled.  Too much information...having you question what you're doing, and what you're giving...when all in all you're doing just fine...we don't fix what's not broken.  Do you know how many goats out there get a 1/4th or a 1/2 of what you're giving?  Mine included.  Do you know how many goats out there, doesn't get any thing like what most of us here in GB gives?  All these goats, they make it through all this just fine.

I know you're worried and scared of Pregnancy Toxemia, or Ketosis...but I'm telling you...you've come a long way since then...it's going to be just fine.  They have a healthy well rounded diet.  Grain is not their main nutritional need.  Forage is their main nutritional need.  It's summer time...leaves are abundant and they are free for the taking.  They get what they need from the leaves.  Yes, we want to leave them out their minerals (I added mine to the grain to prevent waste)...yes they'll need copper bolus'd twice a year...and yes, they'll need selenium supplements (if you're in a selenium deficient area).  Past that...a good quality grain (high in protein), with Boss added (and Vitamin E gel w/selenium on hand just in case a little more is needed)---good quality mixed grass hay---that's all you need.

Our cattle didn't have all these issues that I hear folks talking about with their cattle...we hand milked 5 head of cows twice a day my entire life until moving to Louisiana.  We had 400 head of Angus cattle all my life.  We didn't loose cows to pregnancy toxemia nor did we loose them to milk fever.  The worst we ever had was a bad hoof here and there, and pneumonia in the weaker cows. 

Same with our goats...we didn't give protein blocks, we didn't give alfalfa hay (not even in Missouri where it was abundant), we didn't give shots (unless needed).  We supplied them with ample forage, supplemented with a little grain, 24/7 hay, 24/7 minerals.  That's all that was given on a routine basis.

I seriously think if you just get back to basic's, you'll see things will be just fine.

A hoof issue like you have with your buck.  With our cows...we used epoxy to fill in the crack, as the hoof grew out the epoxy grew out as well.  That cow was brought in and kept in dry quarters until the hoof growth started.  She would get treatments of Koppertox if needed or a foot soaked in Epsom salts...if it was infected she didn't get Biomycin, she got penicillin. 

All in all, simple fixes, no worries...animals survived us for years.  Grin Grin
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~ Birdie ~
cbdale
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Posts: 256


« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2017, 09:01:35 AM »

Hey, I never denied having OCD for my animals.  My mother's side of family loved animals, and my dad could care less.  I am like the mom side, and my sister in San Antonio, is like my dad.   The animals did not ask for what they get, and i just think they deserve the best I can provide  for them.  Yes,  I will send to slaughter house, and my kids come before the animals.  I saw a remark on Facebook the other day, where the lady said her dog was the same as her kids.  That is a little much for me, as scripture warms of you children eating at the table, and the dogs eat from the floor, and to me that is an example of what a pet is to the relation of a child.  Just my opinion
 I am going with 2 cups of Noble, and two cups of A. pellets, AM and PM, for triplets, and that is on low side of what I am reading.  I guess the gals wonder my feeding methods, as I am not doing this for a profit, only to pay for their upkeep, and satisfy my covenant with the county, for over 10 acres of land.  I have spent a good $3k or more yearly for last 3 years,  for fencing, buildings, food, etc., and only sold 2 donkeys for free-- Yehaw   Wife with 4th back surgery, and now 5 hernias , and more surgery, it is time to phase out. My 2 year old, full blooded Pyrenees has learned how to get out of her kennel when a storm some in, and she can climb a 7 ft fence, and I am taking her to  shelter today, as I am afraid she will hang herself with collar, as I have placed cattle panels inside and out to keep her in with all our storms.  She goes into a phobic state, and wlll chew or climb out in some way.  I thought I had it fixed, and this morning I hear her on my deck, wanting in .  It is a shame as she is so nice a dog as a pet.  She does not like to stay with the goats, as my doe rams her hard, and is a pasture bully.
  My male take the  ram one good time, and grabs her by the skin , and they go in a circle yelling, until I pull him off. The Boer doe just will not let the dogs alone.  She is going next!
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imalilbirdie
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Texas


« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2017, 12:51:27 PM »

I believe the same way you do Charles...my dogs are my family, but not ranked highest above my kids or any other member of my family...but they are treated like family, with a good home, as best of food as I can buy and what's best for them, good vet care (that Vet has to pass "MY" inspection), and what they need to stay healthy.  So I do sympathize with you in that regard.  And you are a dandy goat daddy.

I am so sorry to hear about your wife.  Is that 5 more herniated disc's in her back or Intestinal hernia's?  I've had back surgery..for a ruptured disc and a severed siatic (sp) nerve and I do know that pain...it's an awful pain to go through.  I will keep her in my prayers.

My Vet gave me something that's all natural for Sammy due to his stress when we made this last move, and Charles I kid you not, it works great.  It's extremely pricey, but one little chew/treat type pill, and he's relaxed and snoozing, and doing great....it's called VetriScience Laboratories "Pro Line"...Composure "TM" Pro.  Supports calm behavior and brain health.  It's 60 chews per bag, 2 chews per day for a dog over 61 pounds and let me tell you, Charles, serious to God, he slept all the way to Texas...a 6 and 1/2 hour drive...He was totally relaxed when we got here, nothing bothered him at all.  He doesn't like thunder either and it was storming to beat the band that day and that didn't even bother him.  Give your Vet a call and see if they can get that for you....it's worth the 30.00 I paid for the bag...I've only had to give Sam 2 chews and Sasha 1 chew...it's worth it to see them relaxed and unafraid or stressed out.
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~ Birdie ~
cbdale
Caprine Guru
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Posts: 256


« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2017, 06:46:51 PM »

It is worth a try.  I have my female Pyrenees in house now, as we are having stormy weather.  The shelter is full, and I gone today and  enclosed my 4 kennel runs--inside and out-- with 4 square, 16 ft panel, and I hope that will keep her in; however, she will panic, with dilated eyes, and try get out.  It is a shame, as she is a nice dog, just likes people better than goats.  Now, is she could just overcome her phobic behavior , it would be a great day!!
  My wife's hernia's are on right side of abdomen after the back surgery.  A bomber,  for sure!
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imalilbirdie
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Texas


« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2017, 04:56:09 AM »

Oh no...your poor wife has really been through a lot the last year or so.  Bless her heart.  I will continue to pray for her healing.

I love my Sammy Dog (Great Pyr also)...he sheds something awful inside the house, but it's ok, I clean it up daily (sometimes 3 or 4 times a day).  He's a great watch dog, protector, and loves to cuddle.  He protected the goats back home as well, and loved playing with them when they were babies and when they got older and their antics calmed down, he enjoyed just laying out there with them.  Sammy never cared who he had with him, be it goats or humans, but I'm sure he'd never make a goat guardian dog...he loves them, but prefers the Air Conditioning...hahaha.
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~ Birdie ~
cbdale
Caprine Guru
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Posts: 256


« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2017, 10:19:45 AM »

Man, I hope my wife does not see this email of your indoor Pyrenees.  She is about to think the same thing, as the dog loves her, just wants to stay in the house with us.  I guess I spoiled him raising him from a pup.  I tell my wife that is just that I am such a great guy!!  Yehaw
 I would not mind mind having her in house, except if we have to go to see my mom, she would go nuts with us away.  I am going to see if I can find the VetriScience product.

Have a great day---hard to beat yesterday!!
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dragonlair
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« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2017, 10:49:37 AM »

My Pyr is also an inside dog. The goats hate her and I don't want anything bad happening to her when I am gone, so she is only outside when I am. I love her way more than I love the goats. Shed??? Oh, my. She sleeps with me so my bed looks like a shag carpet when she sheds. When I get up from bed, I look like a Yeti! I also have 6 Alaskan Malamutes and an Alaskan Husky, so my house is always covered in dog wool. lol I have to use a shop vac to sweep my house because I have yet to find a vacuum cleaner that will live longer than a month or 2!

I know people who feed alfalfa pellets free choice, but I don't know how they can afford it. I could go thru 100 pounds of it a day if I tried that. (close to $40.00 a day!!!!) On top of the expense, my does would pound out 2+ gallons of milk a day. I drowning in milk as it is right now, I can't imagine that much milk with not much I can do with it except dump. A single person can only drink or eat so much goat milk in a 24 hour period! lol

I'll have to check out that all natural doggie downer for my big male Malamute, Rocky. ever since the fire when he was trapped in the burning house with spray cans exploding, he has been terrified of loud noises (fireworks, thunder, gunshots). If we have a really bad storm or it's the 2 weeks before and after July 4th, he goes into a tizzy. He refuses to eat, paces, whines and tries to hide, poor boy.
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DragonLair Farm and Kennel in Central Maine with Nubians, Lamanchas and Oberhasli. Of course, combinations of 2 or more breeds happens also.
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