HomeHelpLoginRegister

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
October 23, 2017, 01:43:34 PM

Login with username, password and session length
Search

News
hihand Welcome!

Stats
19610 Posts in 1397 Topics by 723 Members
Latest Member: MaryKat1982
+  Welcome to Goat Beat!
|-+  Goat Beat; The Heart of What Keeps us Going
| |-+  Just Getting Started (Moderators: imalilbirdie, pearplum, nancy d, dragonlair, sweetgoats)
| | |-+  WMD, FKS, or Other?
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: [1] Print
Topic: WMD, FKS, or Other?  (Read 122 times)
AggieStace07
Bottle Babies
*
Posts: 6


Nigerian Dwarfs


« on: July 30, 2017, 01:57:01 PM »

I never post on forums, but I'm truly stumped & in need of some insight. My one "hard keeper" ND doe, Gretchen, kidded w very small twin does on May 21. We wormed her w Valbazen about 3 weeks ago, then she came down w bad diarrhea & lost weight FAST last Saturday. Her eyelids were surprisingly pale so, despite it being dry as a bone here & her being dry-lotted the past two months, I hit her w Cydectin in case it was barber pole. The diarrhea disappeared within two days & she's looking better already.
However, last Monday I noticed her black/white doeling was acting "off". She was standing off by herself, somewhat lethargic. I gave her some probios & baking soda/water hoping to snap her out of it. By Wednesday, her condition was the same, & I noticed her eyelids were rather pale, so I wormed her. I figured maybe the dam had passed some of her parasites to her somehow.
By Friday morning, I took her to my vet who gave her a shot of MuSe & suggested 1ml B12 orally 1x/day, plus thiamine at 2cc 2x/day, just in case it was polio. I followed his instructions, & also provided pedialyte & baking soda for her. Additionally, per his instructions, I gave her an IM shot of .2ml BoSe. I went ahead & hit her sister w the same regimen just to be safe. Note: Doc mentioned the black/white doeling's head "looked kinda funny" & he referenced potential selenium deficiency (thus the reason for the Muse & Bose).
By Saturday morning, the kid was hunch-backed w her tail up. Her neck was bent at a funny angle, downwards, & I noticed a cloudy discharge from her nose (not much, but still noticeable). She cried out when she tinkled, & her back legs appeared stiffened as she stood. I observed some apparent ataxia (drunken walk), & heavy breathing. I moved  her, Gretchen, & the twin together in a stall w a fan since it's so hot. When I'd hold her, her head would flop to the side or back, in a lethargic way. Yesterday I observed her nurse on Gretchen & she would eat oak leaves & chopped alfalfa. I gave Biomycin once due to discharge & possible UTI on Saturday morning.
Note: until last Monday, id been supplementing the kids w a bottle; I'm mortified of FKS, so I was careful to not feed more than 2-3 oz per feeding; Gretchen's bag is small & she's just never produced much milk. Last year, my bottle supplements saved her kid & she thrived tremendously after not growing for a few weeks.
These two kids were 8 weeks but under 10 lbs, very small. Last week was crazy stressful & my Pritchard teat gave out on me, so I didn't feed them milk (other than from Gretchen), & I noticed they started to lose weight in their hips almost immediately. I started bottle feeding again Friday. The black/white one was sucking but not well, up until last night. When I went out there this morning, she was dead.
Her sister seems fine, but this AM was a bit "off", just not as lively as she usually is. I really do not want to lose her too, so I'm desperate for any insight/suggestions. Note: I took the black/white kid's temp a few times the past theee days & it was normal at 102.4.
 As mentioned, as a precautionary measure, I gave the sister oral thiamine Friday & Saturday, along w .2ml IM BoSe Friday night. She's been getting electrolytes & a bottle throughout the day. I'm careful not to overfeed. Does anyone have suggestions or thoughts as to with what disease/etc I may be dealing?
Symptoms: Hunched appearance w stiff back legs, lethargy, slow growth, fast weight loss, slight cloudy  discharge from nose, labored breathing, holding beck down & to side, cries when urinating.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 01:58:53 PM by AggieStace07 » Logged
nancy d
Herdmaster
Goat Genius
*****
Posts: 5946

N.W. WA


« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2017, 07:56:41 PM »

Oh dear.
What is WMD? If you mean the parasite they can pick up from deer or even menenginal I would say it is too quickly for that especially if she is not browsing much.
Maybe tetanus? Do you do CDT?
They can become floppy like that when on death's door but I wouldn't think it was classic FKS unless she was dragging her hind legs.
Logged
AggieStace07
Bottle Babies
*
Posts: 6


Nigerian Dwarfs


« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2017, 10:17:05 PM »

Thank you so much for the reply.
White Muscle Disease (WMD)... My apologies nor not clarifying in my original post.
I'm not sure how she would have contracted tetanus, as we have never had prior issues in our herd. We are CAE/CL negative as well.
Her hind legs were stiff... almost like she was stretching w her back arched (like a cat), w/ her tail up & back legs rather straight... So yes, in a way her hooves "dragged", I guess?
I did not overfeed milk; I'm extremely cautious & never fed her more than 3oz per feeding due to her small size. Also, this started showing early signs of lethargy on Monday, & progressed throughout the week, but  as mentioned I did not feed any milk via bottle until Friday night.
Perhaps this was just a small kid who was born w some underdeveloped organs or something...?  If so, I'd have imagined her passing long before 8-9 weeks, though.
Logged
AggieStace07
Bottle Babies
*
Posts: 6


Nigerian Dwarfs


« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2017, 10:22:36 PM »

And I did not CDT these two babies only bc of their small size... I planned on waiting until around 12 weeks. I did, however, hit her twin w her first dose yesterday, just as a precaution, since she's not showing signs of illness yet, other than slight lethargy yesterday & heavy breathing (mind you, its 106 degrees here right now... she's in a cool stall w a fan though).
What's your insight on tetanus? (Symptoms etc.) I just don't know how she would have contracted it... 
Logged
imalilbirdie
Herdmasters
Goat Genius
*****
Posts: 19115


Texas


« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2017, 05:44:59 AM »

OH my goodness...that's a lot of medication for such tiny wee little babies.

My goodness...what you've given in BoSe and MuSe is more than I give a large breed 150 pound goat.  You do realize that MuSe and BoSe can be overdosed and of which there is no recovery shot or treatment for that.  Your vet hit them pretty hard with that and then added to what you gave, it's a lot of medication.  Typically that's a one time shot and they respond rather quickly.  You don't give a second shot unless the animal is actually dying.

The B-12...should be replaced and Fortified Bcomplex, or Maxi B 1000 given.  Small doses given orally to those babies...no more than a 1/2 cc, 1 x daily.  Momma could handle 2cc's 1 x daily.

You don't have WMD or FKS...you have the barber pole or you have cocci...do a fecal test on them.  See which one you're dealing with.  Valbazen is the worst wormer you could have given to a nursing Doe.  Of course that went into her milk and then into the kids and now the kids are suffering from it's side affects as well.  Please, Please...do not ever give Valbazen to a pregnant or nursing Doe...and PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE...make sure that dosage is spot on with their weight...over dosing can kill.  Cydectin...which one did you use, and how many doses did you give?  Injectable?  Pour on given orally?  Or the new Liquid Sheep/goat wormer?  If you used the injectable, chances are she won't thrive...the injectable doesn't work as good as the pour on given orally or the sheep/goat drench.  The pour on, every one is steering clear of now that the sheep/goat wormer is on the market.  With the sheep goat wormer Cydectin, you dose it 1cc per 11lbs of body weight, given once daily for 3 days.  That's the way you kill barber pole worms.

The Anemia...is the lack of iron...the lack of iron comes from the barber pole worm that is a blood sucking worm...the over dose of iron is a major killer...there is no recovery from an over dose...treatment med's are....Geritol Tonic...given once to twice daily.  Redcell given once daily.  Infant liquid Vitamins w/iron, given once daily.  Nutri Drench mixed with molasses or karo syrup (just a little molasses or karo), given 2 times daily...the natural remedies are, but can not be given with chemical treatments fore mentioned....Spinach leaves, raisins, cooked oatmeal, molasses water...these can be given together, and are good for your goat, but too much causes more diarrhea, and the reaction time is slower but better for them.  Anemia is cured slowly...rushing is sure death to your goats.

I'm so sorry you're having to go through this.  I really am, and I don't mean to sound harsh with my posting....when I see Valbazen or the massive use of MuSe or BoSe together, I just get so squimish knowing those are pretty strong chemicals that can cause more adverse reactions than good.  Once given the damages are done.  That's scary to me.

I believe you may have a blockage in the Kidney...supplement a little Cranberry juice...just a little goes a long way...and stop giving forage or green grasses until this diarrhea issue subsides.  Cut their milk in half with water....feed them electrolytes or pedialyte...we gotta stop the diarrhea, so we can heal the anemia (number one killer of goats), and get their little bodies back together.  Probiotic is great for them right now.  If you use the nutri drench, this will help get vitamins into them, as well as help with the diarrhea, AND, will give them weight with the added molasses/karo.  No grain, no grass, no forage until this diarrhea is gone.
Logged

~ Birdie ~
AggieStace07
Bottle Babies
*
Posts: 6


Nigerian Dwarfs


« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2017, 09:28:00 AM »

*Sigh* That was my thought as well, in regards to the medications. It's tough down here (I'm not sure where you are located...), as there are literally NO vets who are "experts" in goat treatment, and it's very frustrating. There is only one vet, who I really like, who has tried his best to learn as much as he can about goats, so all of us "goat folks" look to him for answers. Unfortunately, it sounds as though the MuSe shot he gave her may have made matters worse... I thought the same thing after I got home and read about it. I understand BoSe, but MuSe is so potent (from what I've read).

To clarify: Neither Gretchen nor her surviving kid have diarrhea; their feces looks perfectly normal at this time. Gretchen HAD diarrhea for a few days last week, which did not smell like cocci, so I assumed it was barber pole due to the pale eyelids; when I hit her w/ 4cc cydectin, the diarrhea disappeared.

 Luckily, the surviving twin has NOT been given any MuSe. I have just been focusing on providing her with good-quality hay, chopped alfalfa, whole milk (with careful amounts per feeding -- I will cut it w/ water, per your recommendation), & a little baking soda/electrolytes (if she appears bloated). Is PowerPunch similar to NutriDrench? If so, at a rate of 2x/daily, how many cc should I administer to the baby?

I have Fortified B Complex. Do you suggest I hit the surviving baby & dam w/ it this evening? If so, should it be administered IM or SQ? I think the vet advised me to use the B12 (red liquid) to stimulate appetite, more than anything else. I have not given it to the baby since Saturday and will not give it to her again.

I think you nailed it on the head w/ the barber pole or cocci... We struggle a LOT w/ barber pole down here. I didn't even know what the heck it was until two years ago, when I lost a 3 month old kid to it... I hate having to learn the hard way. After that, I switched to cydectin, since it's apparently the only wormer that kills that parasite. I NEVER give Valbazen to pregnant does; I had never been told not to give it to nursing does. Thank you for the insight... I feel like an idiot now for not knowing. :-(

On that note: What do you give pregnant does for barber pole? My vet mentioned that he's seen Cydectin cause abortions in cattle, but I have never had issues with my goats aborting.

To answer your question: I gave Gretchen 4cc sheep/goat drench orally, as she is approximately 45 lbs. I always dose my herd at that 1cc/11# rate, so I'm glad to know I've at least been doing that correctly. I was told that giving a second dose of wormer within 10 days of the initial dose may cause issues in their kidneys; do you suggest that I go ahead & hit Gretchen w/ it again today, and once more tomorrow? I thought it was a 10-10-10 rule in regards to dosage? Ugh, I hate those stupid worms!

I did not know about the iron overdose being fatal - Thank you for the information!!! I wish more literature was available on this topic (other than on this site), as I think many people would think barber pole = blood sucker = anemia = need more iron. *Sigh*

In summary: I will cut the milk w/ water & continue to provide her w/ 3 oz in AM & 3oz in PM; she has her dam during the day while I'm at work. I will dose her w/ Fortified B Complex at 0.5cc once per day (please let me know if it's IM or SQ, & how many days I should continue the dosage). I will give Gretchen 2cc. If you say that NutriDrench is different than PowerPunch, then I will go pick some up from Tractor Supply today.. Let me know how many oral cc you recommend, please. I will provide the baby w/ a little cranberry juice to aid with her urinary issue... You think 2cc is ok, or shall I mix it in her water?

Again, I can't thank you enough for your insight. My goat mentor recommended that I join GoatBleat, and I'm so happy that I did. You are wonderful!
Logged
Julie H
Goat Genius
*****
Posts: 1540


Missouri


« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2017, 02:16:42 PM »

Welcome!

I am sorry it is under such rough circumstances  Cry

BP Worm is the worst I have experienced this year.  You would think that with our horrible heat and dry conditions  it wouldn't be an issue, but I have had several kids succumb to it and that is a first for me in my 11 years of goat ownership.  Thankfully all have bounced back quickly and I am watching everyone like a hawk.

One doeling was quite bad but she is doing much better now.  I use cydectin too, it seems to be most effective for me still.  The advice from the others is the best you will get.  One thing I can add is that I try to not throw too much at my goats when a medical issue happens.  We can get so worried we use everything but the kitchen sink!  Sometimes we need to breathe, take a look and treat accordingly.  Goats are so fragile we need to medicate gently.

I hope your remaining girl is on the mend.  
« Last Edit: July 31, 2017, 02:18:13 PM by Julie H » Logged
dragonlair
Herdmaster
Goat Genius
*****
Posts: 9299



« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2017, 02:46:02 PM »

Be careful adding water to the milk. Too much of it will cause blood in the urine when bottle fed.

You might start giving her iron of some sort. I use injectable piglet iron, it works faster and is more readably absorbed into the system when it bypasses the stomach.

Those doses of BOSE and MUSE were way to much for such a tiny kid. Too much selenium presents with the same symptoms as a deficiency and is more deadly. The injectable selenium stays in the body for 21 days, whereas the oral preparations are gone in less than 24.

Valbazen is one of the only 2 or 3 wormers that have been tested and declared safe for goats. I use it as the first wormer for my kids and for the does after kidding if I need it for liveflukes. It can cause abortions if used in pregnant does, especially during the first 3 months. Unfortunately, it a lot of areas, it does not kill barberpole worms, they have become resistant to it. It is in the same family as Safeguard, which is another med that has lost its ability to kill most worms.
Logged

DragonLair Farm and Kennel in Central Maine with Nubians, Lamanchas and Oberhasli. Of course, combinations of 2 or more breeds happens also.
AggieStace07
Bottle Babies
*
Posts: 6


Nigerian Dwarfs


« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2017, 04:48:20 PM »

Julie: Thank you for the welcome, insightful reply! I definitely learned through this unfortunate incident to do exactly what you said: BREATHE. (And post on GoatBeat for some insight before taking action). Roll Eyes

DragonLair: I think the remaining kid is fine with regular whole milk; it's never caused diarrhea for her, so I do not think diluting it is necessary at this point. Good info to know for the future, though, regarding the potential side effects from adding water to it. I wonder why that occurs...?

What do you and ImALittleBirdie recommend in regards to a shot schedule of BoSe for adult does? I have read varying opinions as to when to dose them, so I would of course like to hear it from y'all so that I may plan my schedule, accordingly. We are in a selenium-deficient area, so now it's just a matter of how much (1cc/50#?) and when exactly to administer it. Let me know your thoughts, please!

Again, I truly appreciate everyone's time & insight in helping me through this rough week.
Logged
nancy d
Herdmaster
Goat Genius
*****
Posts: 5946

N.W. WA


« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2017, 05:17:43 PM »

Sorry it was my fuzzbrain not recognizing WMD when you first posted very clearly.

I do BoSe usually twice a year; right before breeding & a few weeks before kidding at 1 cc per 40lbs.
As for any injections, just about everything except lutalyse & oxytocin can be done SQ.
If needed, BoSe can be given orally at least to newborns.
And yes water in bottles can be lethal unless you are withholding milk for a specific reason like to treat FKS and it's elecrolytes. I don't know why that it can be deadly but they drink water on their own when ready.
The rumen is not fully developed until around 3 months.
I once mistakenly gave a very pregnant doe 2 doses of BoSe 10 days apart. She was fine and so were the kids when they arrived but I sure wasn't!
 
Logged
cbdale
Caprine Guru
****
Posts: 275


« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2017, 05:31:41 PM »

Yep, these gals are guru,  goat doctors!!!  Yehaw---  Girls, what do you  think about her giving a tetracycline to a nursing doe, or really young kids??   I use a different antibiotic in these cases.

Very few Vets have the experience as these gals on Goat Beat(goats), and It is strange that their knowledge on goats are so limited.
Logged
imalilbirdie
Herdmasters
Goat Genius
*****
Posts: 19115


Texas


« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2017, 05:55:06 AM »

Never heard of water in milk causing blood in the urine until now.  Out of thousands of bottle babies that I have had (which I absolutely love bottle babies, so I'm a real sucker for Dairy breed bottle babies that need rescuing!! LOL), I have never had any issue with blood in the urine until Lily came along.  Lily was a truly sick baby goat when I got her...and I do think hers was due to some tree leaves she was munching on.  I use the Vitamin D whole milk, and at a month old I start putting a little infant oatmeal into the bottle.  I know they don't start ruminating until they are 30 days old, so I wait until then.

As for Valbazen...I'm all for banning that wormer off the market completely.  I know of more folks who've used it and had ill side affects (to include death of their goats), than those that have had good experiences with it.   That includes myself.  I could go on and on about what it's done to my goats....but I'll just say, that if you don't know the side affect signs of that wormer, you best steer clear of it.  If you can't be spot on with the weight to dosage, then you best steer clear of it.  And yes, I've seen it cause abortions, and kill baby goats (ages of 8 weeks and up)...you would never ever get me to use that stuff ever again.  It's NOT safe for goats, I don't care what the lab tech's say....if one goat has side affects, and one goat dies from it...IT'S NOT SAFE.  And I know way more than one goat who died from it or had serious side affects to it.  So with that being said, use the Valbazen at your own risk.

Cydectin Sheep/goat drench is the best wormer on the market right now.  Down here in Texas, worms are an issue for every animal.  Worming should be a consistent regimen for every owner of any animal.  When we were in Louisiana, I thought worms were bad there.  But they are tons worse down here in Texas.  Cocci is something that seems to afflict more folks who are living around the water or are in low lying areas that stands water for several days after a rain.  Not seeing a lot of cocci isssues around here.

I don't use BoSe.  I would if I were forced to though.  I use the Vitamin E Gel w/Selenium from Jeffers.  Here's a link to it...
https://www.jefferspet.com/products/selenium-vitamin-e-gel-for-goats

These are some items that I have on hand all the time for if and when I need them...
https://www.jefferspet.com/products/copasure-for-sheep-and-goats-4-gram-12-capsules?via=533884a29fa2600f00000395%2F533884a49fa2600f000003c1%2F533884a69fa2600f000003dc
Or I also used these...same thing...I use for large breed goats of course..
https://www.jefferspet.com/products/copasure
  **Note: this one is for calves...it's the one you want to get.

https://www.jefferspet.com/products/vitamin-b-complex-gel-30gm?via=533884a29fa2600f00000395%2F533884a49fa2600f000003c1%2F533884a69fa2600f000003dc

https://www.jefferspet.com/products/fortified-vitamin-b-complex-100-ml  (this can be given orally and actually works better given orally than injected.)

https://www.jefferspet.com/products/goat-and-sheep-nutri-drench?via=533884a29fa2600f00000395%2F533884a49fa2600f000003c1%2F533884a69fa2600f000003dc

Now the types of wormers on the market that are safe for goats are:
Dectomax injectable given orally.
Ivomec injectable given orally.
Ivomectrin horse paste wormer given orally.
Cydectin sheep/goat drench given orally.  https://www.jefferspet.com/products/cydectin-oral-sheep-drench?via=5338849d9fa2600f0000031a%2F5338849f9fa2600f00000346%2F533884a09fa2600f00000361  (if fighting the barber pole worm, dose at 1cc per 11 pounds of body weight, given once daily for 3 days)
Cydectin pour on for cattle given orally to goats---**note: since the sheep and goat drench came onto the market, most goat herders have stopped using this)
Safeguard (only kills tape, pin, round, and hookworms---if dosing this wormer, it's 1cc per 10lbs of body weight given once daily for 5 days)
Panacur (name brand---again only kills tape, pin, round, and hookworms...if dosing this wormer again it's 1cc per 10lbs of body weight given once daily for 5 days)

Those are your tried and true wormers...safe for pregnant and nursing Does, safe for babies at the age of 8 weeks and up.  I might be old fashion, but I'd rather be safe than sorry. 

Something to remember, and I had to learn the hard way even though it was being spoke of often here in GB, but since I never had an issue with Copper Deficiency in AR, I didn't really pay much attention to it, until I moved to LA...and then I opened my eyes and said "oh boy...lets get serious about this now"....

Copper deficiency...Copper is low in many many areas and states around the nation.  Some worse than others.  The deficiency of copper aids in weak and unthrifty kids.  Copper deficiency can inhibit the ability to absorb wormers thus rendering them less affective.  Copper Deficiency can cause a world of issues with your goats.  So if you're in a copper deficient area, then you need to copper bolus your goats, twice a year...every 6 months.  Now I used the cattle/Calf copper bolus's, and I broke them open and put it over the top of their feed (our goats are/were individually fed, we don't mass feed--if you mass feed you will need to make arrangements for shoving a pill down their throat (which are huge pills), or individually giving it to them in another form or fashion).  Once I did the copper bolus'ing, I'd come back in a week and start my worming regimen.  This worked great for me down in South Louisiana and seems to be doing good down here in Texas (out skirts of Houston).

Logged

~ Birdie ~
Pages: [1] Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  

Powered by SMF 1.1.20 :: SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines
Amber design by Bloc | XHTML | CSS
candlewick