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Topic: Not sure what to do  (Read 509 times)
dragonlair
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« on: October 05, 2017, 11:10:31 AM »

I currently have a mixed herd. I have 3 bucks, a Nubian, Lamancha and a Nigerian Dwarf. I have several Lamancha does, several Nubian does, 2 mini Nubian yearlings and an Oberhasli.

My Nigerian buck is of superb breeding. He sires himself in all his kids, and they are some gorgeous. However, so far they have all been mini Nubians or Lamanchas. I want to start raising Nigerians and cut back on some of the standards.

My problem......which breed do I stop raising?

I love my Lamanchas. My buck is purebred and I absolutely adore him. I have 2 purebred does, one is his daughter. The mother of the 2 is the daughter of a doe that placed 9th at the nationals in 2016 for aged does in a HUGE class. Both of these girls are show quality. Mom is a superb milkers, daughter will be rbed this fall for the first time. The other 2 Lamancha does are %-Nubian/Lamanchas, 1/2 sisters to my Nubian buck, not related to the Mancha buck. The other 3 Lamancha does are daughters of my Mancha buck and are considered % because Mom was either not registered or was a cross.

I tolerate the Nubians. My American Nubian buck is extremely well bred. He sires gorgeous show quality kids. His only daughter (American Nubian) will not be bred until 2018 for 2019 kids, so her udder is a long way off. I sold her, but will no doubt get her back. I have 4 purebred Nubian does and another 1is 50% on paper, but is probably more like 75% Nubian. Her Nubian half is top bloodlines. The 4 purebred does are from super quality bloodlines and 3 are show quality.

So, which way do I go? Awesome bloodlines are awesome bloodlines no matter who you cross them with. The show quality, milk production and the bloodlines will be passed to the kids no matter if they are purebred, American or experimental/mixed breeds.

I do not like my Nubian buck. He is gorgeous. He is easy to handle. He is top of the line breeding, but, he is nasty. He was raised by a woman who treats her bucklings and bucks like pets, so they have no respect for humans and looks at them like prospective mates. He's not mean by any standards, but he is overly friendly. He is always in my face. Trying to feed him is a chore because I try to dodge his advances. Sprays, physical corrections- nothing keeps him from trying to rub on my shoulder, pee on me, lick my face, extend his parts and generally flirt like he would with a doe. I have never had a buck like this, even though they were bottle raised by me, I made sure they knew humans were off limits from a very yearly age. This guy did not get that training and was allowed to act this way his first 2 years  of life. I have tried to correct him since I got him 1 1/2 years ago, nothing works.

My 2 Mini Nubians are open because I have no mini Nubian buck to breed them to, and my Nigie is their sire. I'll be selling them even though they are drop dead gorgeous and would throw some gorgeous kids. Even though they are 50% purebred Nubian, they cannot be registered with ADGA because they are cross bred with Nigerians, so they would have to be registered with the Mini dairy breed association.

So, do I sell him after this breeding year and just start breeding the Nubians to my Lamancha? (I already have a couple of his kids spoken for in 2018) Another item to consider- the Lamancha herdbook is still open. After any mix breeds reach a certain point, they can be entered into the purebred herdbook. Another plus.

I'm just so confused right now. I have a couple of superior Nigerian does I am looking at, from the woman who bred my Nigie buck (who would LOVE to have him back! lol). If I sell my 2 mini Nubs, I can afford to get them, so that is what I am going to do.
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DragonLair Farm and Kennel in Central Maine with Nubians, Lamanchas and Oberhasli. Of course, combinations of 2 or more breeds happens also.
Julie H
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Missouri


« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2017, 01:30:23 PM »

1.  I would keep what you like best.

2. I would keep what sells best.

I love Nubs, but I know Nigerian's are very popular  and since you are in this to have an income, I would go with what is best financially.  Are any breeds better on feed than other's?

Trying to juggle all those breeds would be difficult for me  Roll Eyes
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Julie H
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Missouri


« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2017, 01:31:35 PM »

OOPS. We need a delete option....
« Last Edit: October 05, 2017, 01:34:17 PM by Julie H » Logged
Julie H
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Missouri


« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2017, 01:33:03 PM »

Also,  can you cross the Nubs with the Nigerian?  I know you have papered animals so maybe that is a waste of good bloodlines.
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dragonlair
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« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2017, 02:38:05 PM »

I have crossed the standards with the Nigerian to make Mini's. However, even though I had people ask me if I would start breeding them, which I did after buying a very expensive Nigerian of excellent bloodlines and type, the sales were slow. I will this year, the daughters of my Mancha buck, but no more after this.

Mini's are registerable with the MDGA. They are a cross between a registered Nigerian and a registered standard dairy breed. They are becoming popular, but people were not willing to put their money where their mouths were and I ended up shipping several awesome bucks to the meat market the last 2 years. I'll just go really small with the purebred Nigerians now. The lines my buck is from are bred for milk production, not pets, so their milk production amount is decent, plus they have easy to milk teats. Ones bred for pets are darn near impossible to milk.

If I can whittle the herd down to 2 breeds, I can just put the buck in with the does when the time comes instead of having to do it one at a time in the barn, usually at night.  Roll Eyes
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DragonLair Farm and Kennel in Central Maine with Nubians, Lamanchas and Oberhasli. Of course, combinations of 2 or more breeds happens also.
cbdale
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« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2017, 05:44:15 PM »

Well,Dragonlair, you just smell to good!!  Yehaw    I had to fight off my Genemaster buck, after finding he loved the smell of mosquito spray. He thought I was a gal, and I had to show him I was not.  I could just not bend around him, and he would rub his big head all over my legs.  He still loves to rub his head on my pant legs. I built him an inside barn,  hay holder, out of 2x4's , and 4x4 panel wire. He is really large, like a full Boer buck.

Do you gals continue to feed the does , with 2 to 3 months old kids , the same amount of feed while they are nursing, or cut back on feed, and once a day, to wean?
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imalilbirdie
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« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2017, 06:08:29 AM »

Considering that your Mini Nubians will always have to be bred back to a mini buck, that would be a task for sure if you can't find a mini buck to put them on.  Your Nubians and LaMancha can be bred to one another without having to purchase a smaller buck for them.  Then again, around here...the Mini's are what's selling best.  Again mostly for pets, but it would keep those boys from going to slaughter.  Mini boys makes great pets...an avenue to consider here.  Where the market is really good for them at this point, they are fetching decent prices...the lowest mini wether w/blue eyes that I've found has been 200.00 unregistered.  That's money in the pocket book Deb.  With less feed, less care, and need of less room.  A pygmy is selling for even more than that.

If you need the milk production, then go with your large breeds...I like the Nubian, but I know they are loud and can be pretty stubborn.  I like the LaMancha (except when forced to tattoo or tag them, which I refuse to do), because they are native to the America's.  But they don't sell as well as the Nubian or the Mini down here.  I don't know why, maybe it's the ear thing? 

I personally...given the amount of room you have, and the amount you have to spend in feed/hay...I'd stick with your Mini Nub's or Mini Mancha's and a good mini buck...maybe that gal who what's your mini buck back, can switch you for a year a good buck she wants to keep, to your buck that you want to keep, and you all have a season with each others bucks and then trade back after the rut is over.  I mean that could be an easy fix for you Deb.

As far as too friendly...I personally kept mine super friendly and only Tadpole pee'd on me once...never happened again...they all rubbed their faces on me, girls and boys.  None of mine were disbudded/dehorned.  So as they got older I had to watch those horns, especially on those Kiko's!!  laugh 

Charles:  I feed my Does their nursing ration, until I wean the kids off.  When I wean the kids, that's when I start the cut back of their rations and I do that very slowly.  I feed twice a day, even if they aren't nursing or pregnant.
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~ Birdie ~
Julie H
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Missouri


« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2017, 01:15:04 PM »

Mini breeds with color are what has been selling here.  My friends who bred Nigerian's and crosses always sold out quickly because of the color.  If you can find a market that might be your best option.

I personally would love to breed mini's just for the size factor.  Less work, less feed needed, easier to manhandle and they are so darn cute!  I had a Pygmy buck "OOPS breed"  2 young does one year in MN.   Those kids were born on pogo sticks, with airplane ears and boy they were snapped up fast.

Charles-- I do not drop my grain ration until my buck goes in with the does to breed.   My girls tend to need the extra feed even after weaning for a while.  Even then the drop depends on how they are holding condition and I adjust it as needed.  I find once the kids are gone they dry up quickly even with abundant hay, pasture and grain.
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dragonlair
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« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2017, 05:28:29 PM »

Mini wethers do not sell up here, no matter how colorful. Even the F1 bucks, no matter how wildly colorful (moonspots and blue eyes) do not sell. They end up being shipped for meat or end up in a very bad, abusive/neglectful situation.

I will always have some standards. I am just trying to figure out which ones I want to keep, Nubians or Lamanchas. Both have their pros and cons.

No trading of bucks. Most serious breeders up here do not lease their bucks out or breed outside does because of disease control. I will not sell Volty, he is too important to me.

I am still trying to figure out what to do with my 2 Mini Nubians- sell or keep. Part of me wants to sell because they really will serve no purpose to me and I would have to haul them far away to be bred or buy a Mini Nubian buck. Breeding them back to a Nigerian buck defeats the purpose of Mini's and the kids would not be able to be registered. They wouldn't be Mini's and they wouldn't be Nigerians. But they have grown on me. I think they were oops bred by a Nubian buckling, so that is another consideration. I don't like aborting yearlings because their reproductive system isn't mature and I don't want to take a chance on messing it up. I am afraid to sell if that is the case, I know how to deliver problem kids, not everyone does. These girls have nice wide, level back ends, so there will probably not be problems, but.......

I really want to have a few Nigerian does to show and milk. I have an area where they can be apart from the rest of the herd, it's just getting the does. I figure an adult and a kid to start with.

By overly friendly, I mean this Nubian buck thinks I am a doe. If it was just a case of him being friendly and rubbing, ok, I could deal with it. Volt and Addy are both friendly and love to be petted. Ty goes further. Every time I go near the buck pen, he rears up on the fence to get to me, fully extended and ready to breed.
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DragonLair Farm and Kennel in Central Maine with Nubians, Lamanchas and Oberhasli. Of course, combinations of 2 or more breeds happens also.
imalilbirdie
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Texas


« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2017, 06:31:41 AM »

That's a shame you have no market for those colorful/blue eyed boys...down here, you'd fetch 250.00 easily for them.  Even in Louisiana, they sold those bottle babies for 200 to 250.00.  All for pets...they sell so fast a breeder can't keep them supplied.  Sure wish there was a way you could market outside your state.  I don't understand why the market varies like this from state to state.  Gosh back in AR even, years ago, Pygmys sold quick, and those that were healthy and tame fetched higher prices...no matter their color or markings.  I'd love to have me a bunch of Pygmy's again....mixed in with a few Nigi's...I'm just a true lover of the mini goat I suppose.  Like Julie said, their antics won my heart a long time ago, and that Baby Shooter...he tipped that scale over the top for me...he was with me where ever I went...a grand baby boy he was for sure.

Deb, go with your heart...you know what's best for you up there.  Volty is your Lamancha buck right.  Hang onto him if you want to.  Decide what you'll do later with him.  I think in your heart you already know what you have to do, it's excepting that now, because you have so many different options you can go with.  One morning you'll wake up and wha-laa, you'll know exactly what to do and it'll be the right thing for you.
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~ Birdie ~
cbdale
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« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2017, 12:21:28 PM »

Man, I would never lease out one of my bucks to anyone.  You are asking for trouble with unknowns, and I once leases a reg. Black Angus, bull of mine, and they kept him a month over agreed time, and he was skin and bones, and when he came back, he was skin and bones, where they had over bred him.  Never again!
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Julie H
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Missouri


« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2017, 01:19:54 PM »

I would consider leasing a buck out but only to people I know ( there are a few)  and have first hand knowledge of their goat keeping practices.  A friend of ours from church ( & husbands doctor)  who I have bought several goats from in the past ( to get my herd started) ended up using my first Boer buck "Sweet Pea".  He came and collected samples and had him tested before allowing him on his farm .  He came home in fabulous condition, so it can work out.

Dragon--  I think you will eventually make your decision and it will be the right one.  It is sometimes just so hard knowing what to do and hard letting some girls go.  Take your time and it will fall into place.
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dragonlair
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« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2017, 02:35:40 PM »

Volt is my Nigerian, Adammair (or Addy) is my Lamancha and Ty (Tyrant) is the Nubian.

People up here are not so quick to keep goats as pets. Remember, we have a very short growing season, so hay is expensive even in a good year. Fencing is expensive. Commercial feed is expensive. There is almost no place in Maine where they grow grains for feed, except Aroostook county (Way, way up north) where they grow oats to rotate with the potatoes. Pretty much everything is trucked in.  Most wethers that go for pets end up neglected and abused.

There is also a difference between Nigerians, Pygmies and Minis. Minis are now a breed- Miniature versions of the standard dairy goats. They are a cross between a Nigerian Dwarf (registered, purebred) and a standard dairy breed. (should be registered but you can breed up the does like you can in other standard registries). There is 1 registry for dairy breeds (Miniature Dairy Goats Association) and another for all small goats- Minis, Nigerians and Pygmies, even some mixing of meat goats also, I think. The old ways of calling all miniature goats Mini's isn't accurate any more! Makes it really confusing. Roll Eyes

I can't wait to get my Nigerian does.
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DragonLair Farm and Kennel in Central Maine with Nubians, Lamanchas and Oberhasli. Of course, combinations of 2 or more breeds happens also.
imalilbirdie
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« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2017, 06:17:17 AM »

I keep forgetting that Deb..."mini's" is the new breed...that just makes me laugh  laugh laugh  Remember that Kinder goat I rescued...she was a mix of boer x pygmy...she was a pretty little girl, sweet as pie, but was way bigger than my pygmy's, yet way smaller than my boers.  She was a fine pet for our neighbors for sure.  She was a beefy little thing.

I'll have to remember that when I speak of wanting the "small" breeds...lol.
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~ Birdie ~
dragonlair
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« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2017, 03:12:29 PM »

However, a Kinder is a Pygmy crossed with a Nubian- and the name is trademarked! You can't even use it unless your goat is registered with the Kinder breed association or they could pursue legal charges against you! I've heard people say they used the term, not knowing it was trademarked, and got legal letters from the registry. Wow.

I had Mini's before there were Mini's. My Nigerian bucks got loose and in with my standard dairy and Boer does. I had some fancy little kids born 5 months later. Blue eyes on a Boer is kind cool. lolololol Back then they were just a mixed breed goat, not wanted by anyone because they were bigger than Nigerians and smaller than standards. Boy, how times have changed.
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DragonLair Farm and Kennel in Central Maine with Nubians, Lamanchas and Oberhasli. Of course, combinations of 2 or more breeds happens also.
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