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Topic: Does Abort  (Read 242 times)
ND21st
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Posts: 133


« on: March 03, 2019, 08:54:17 AM »

Got a frantic call from a fellow goater last night.  Her doe miscarried trips just heading into the 4th month.  No warning, she seemed fine, no discharge she observed.  But the worrisome aspect is she had another doe abort at about 6 weeks previously.  I've only experienced maybe 3 or 4 miscarries in nearly 20 years, so couldn't really advise her.  She has had a closed herd for years but did use a leased buck.  He was only a year and a half and very little used and by all accounts wonderfully managed.
The first thought would be chlamydia, though doesn't that mainly occur late pregnancy?  I know there is campylobacter and toxoplasmosis but I'm not well versed on those. 
But 2 abortions seems more than coincidence and my friend is beyond consolation since she only had a handful of does bred.
She plans to get the vet over this week - no one available on weekends.  The doe is so far acting and eating fine, though missing the kids.
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Julie H
Goat Genius
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Posts: 1694


Missouri


« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2019, 02:57:50 PM »

I have a " almost" closed herd myself as I keep does each year for breeding purposes and have never brought new ones in since my first purchase in 2006.  I do buy a buck every year to use though as your friend did.

In all those years I have had a handful of random abortions at various stages of pregnancy.  I have never seen an obvious physical reason for them and in every case the doe who experienced the loss bred back and successfully birthed healthy kids the next year and every year following.   I never had a vet out and the does never showed any symptoms of anything abnormal after the miscarriage.  On the few times they were far enough along to have fully formed kids . they looked completely normal in every way.

Sometimes it happens, but if your friend is at all concerned a vet follow up is a good idea.
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dragonlair
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« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2019, 04:32:21 PM »

Some plants that pop up in hay fields or woodlands will cause abortions. The does act fine, because it really doesn't cause them issues, just brings on early labor and/or kills the fetuses.

In cases of multiples, if one kid dies, then the doe will generally abort, causing the deaths of any others in the litter.

Could a senior doe be headbutting the other does?
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DragonLair Farm and Kennel in Central Maine with Nubians, Lamanchas and Oberhasli. Of course, combinations of 2 or more breeds happens also.
imalilbirdie
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Posts: 19477


Texas


« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2019, 05:38:26 AM »

Deb (dragonlair) that's exactly what I was thinking.  Wild fern is coming up by leaps and bounds this time of year.  It's a number one cause of abortions in pregnant Does in every state we've ever lived in.  Will do so in Cattle and horses as well.  That nasty stuff can survive the deepest hardest winters.

I also thought about a Doe head butting and ramming them, as that's what caused our 2 abortions and dead babies and some pretty awful deliveries on one Doe. 

I was told by our Vet that unless you have the after birth tested (which has to be done right away), then you may never truly know what caused it.  Our Vet always advised us to give a Doe who's aborted a year off...we did as she suggested, and our Does did very well indeed.  Now remember our Does did not have easy abortions...these babies came out in pieces and the Does suffered badly...Our first Doe when Doc said "Pam, this is not good, she could die." I hit my knees right there in her office, and asked her to do all she could do to save my Does life, and then I began to pray.

Please ask your friend, have mercy on the Does, and allow them plenty of time to heal inside and outside.  Took our Does over 5 weeks to even stand back up.  Most heart breaking thing I ever saw.  Our Does were rammed by another Doe very late into their pregnancy.  After birth showed no signs of abnormalities.
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~ Birdie ~
ND21st
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Posts: 133


« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2019, 08:50:28 AM »

She says both aborted quickly and easily, fetuses looking normal in every way, and both eating and acting fine.  Both a bit tired for a few days.  She thinks it's not a butting issue.  She'll look into the fern thing but is doubtful on that possible cause.  It's been pretty much snow covered all season.  She is pretty upset about losing 3 kids though.
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Julie H
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Posts: 1694


Missouri


« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2019, 01:00:04 PM »

Could it be a mineral issue?  I do know that in cows a lack of minerals can cause a lot of issues.
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dragonlair
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« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2019, 02:34:35 PM »

Yes, overdose or deficiency of certain minerals can cause it.
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DragonLair Farm and Kennel in Central Maine with Nubians, Lamanchas and Oberhasli. Of course, combinations of 2 or more breeds happens also.
imalilbirdie
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Posts: 19477


Texas


« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2019, 07:58:39 AM »

Yes mineral could be a huge issue with abortions, but that late into the pregnancy?  Not that it can't happen, I suppose.  I know that would show in the placenta.  I highly advise her that if this happens again, to take a chest type freezer and gather that placenta and take it as soon as possible to the Vets office and have it sent off for testing.

Once years ago, when Moosie (our huge SA Boer Doe) gave birth, she birthed a Mummified baby and a Normal baby that was gigantic (15lbs at birth)...I was fearful of that mummified baby...the Vet was there with me helping me get the kids out of Moosie, because her labor did not progress, and it was a most horrible delivery....when I got the mummified baby out, Vet said, "Pray that next one isn't." and of course I did...and he wasn't.  At the time Toxoplasmosis was something that was a huge fear....Vet kept telling me that if she had that, both babies would have been mummified, and he felt certain that she didn't have it...I forced him to take her placenta and test it any way...I wanted to make absolutely sure my Doe was ok.

All in all that's when the Vet told me that you have to test that placenta as fast as you can.  Then the year I helped a friend deliver his placenta Abruption babies...Texas A & M, talked me through that delivery....that was GOD AWFUL!!!  That will make you have nightmares for months!  Dr. Soto (I could be spelling that wrong), said as soon as the afterbirth came out, to put it in a chest type cooler and get on the road to the lab with it.  Well it took her 2 hours to pass that, and we were there, and had it fall directly down into the chest cooler and off they went with it.

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~ Birdie ~
ND21st
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Posts: 133


« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2019, 08:40:15 AM »

What does a placenta abruption look like?  And cause?
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Julie H
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Posts: 1694


Missouri


« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2019, 01:09:33 PM »

What does a placenta abruption look like?  And cause?

Looking it up you really don't see anything.  It says there can be some bleeding and pain.  They were referring to women but I would think it would be similar in animals too.  The causes they listed did not relate to goats, but it did list trauma as a reason.  Even though your friend thinks head butting is not a possibility, if you have goats living together it is always a possibility and happens more often than you think .  Even in herds that seems docile and well adjusted.
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imalilbirdie
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Posts: 19477


Texas


« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2019, 07:12:36 AM »

Yes, Julie, your research is for the most part correct.  However, within goats there is TONS of blood.  If the navel cords aren't tied and cut, Kids and mothers will bleed to death.  As the Vet instructed me to clamp off the umbilical's, I couldn't clamp them as I had no clamps...I had to tie them off with dental floss.  Placenta Abruption deliveries, the umbilical cords do not release from the placenta...thus causing a rubber band effect...sucking the babies back inside before the umbilical's release, and then it tears out of the babies stomach.  With Mom, if the umbilical isn't tied off, she will bleed to death in a matter of minutes.  They do not deliver the placenta until it has released from the uterine wall.  That can take hours, and in our case it took 2 hours.  During that time, you do not know if the moms uterine has torn or not.  If the placenta isn't delivered, then as the Vet said, they would have to go inside and examine if the placenta has released from the uterine.  If it does not release, Mom stands to die...you can not force the placenta to release by pulling the placenta out...our case turned out ok...by the Grace of God it turned out ok.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2019, 05:32:49 AM by imalilbirdie » Logged

~ Birdie ~
Pat
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Posts: 385



« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2019, 09:59:16 PM »

Wow...how scary can it get?  It's things like this (plus the thought of getting out to the barn exactly every 12 hours for the next 300 or so days, plus what on earth are the two of us going to do with all that milk/cheese) that has resulted in all my girls being maidens even though they are either 4 or 6 years old.  I admit to being a devout coward, and possibly never having had a child myself is part of the problem.  Maybe if I'd been through it, it might make more sense.

Anyway, hope your friend's other does do wonderfully.
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ND21st
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Posts: 133


« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2019, 08:53:53 AM »

Birdie, thanks for that info.  I was totally ignorant on that condition - yes, very scary
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