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Topic: Items to have on hand during kidding season.  (Read 16375 times)
imalilbirdie
Herdmasters
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Posts: 19149


Texas


« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2009, 08:23:52 AM »

Susanne..?? for you please..may I ask what you do with your does milk after you pull your kids?  Do you drink it?  or do you pitch it?  You may have mentioned that in an earlier thread, but I'm too lazy to search it out..lol..rofl..I know you were concerned with the CAE and are doing the CAE program of pulling kids at birth..but I often wonder with this program, what colostrums you feed (if from another goat..then you're still running the risk of CAE)?  I'm just so curious to this aspect of raising goats.

The molasses water is also recommended by about every Vet I've ever spoken to..and our Vet now, which is a caprine specialist..she highly advises breeders to feed the warm molasses water abundantly after kidding.  Especially in this type of cold weather. 

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~ Birdie ~
Susanne
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« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2009, 12:02:56 PM »

most milk is feed to the kids after it is pasteurized, we drink the milk, i make cheese and i have some boarding clients. (goat shares) Wink
i do not know what benefit molasses should have to my does as we are good without it.  molasses is sugar and depletes the body of b- vitamins.
it works very well on my farm Wink
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Susanne
Guest
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2009, 12:15:54 PM »

should have read more careful. here are some more answers Smiley
i do test all my goats twice a year. i only use colostrum/milk from tested negative does. since a doe in generally produces more colostrum then she need for the kids, i freeze the surplus in pop bottles for the next kids. when the doe is in labor, i get the bottles out of the freezer. when the kids are born, they immediately get the colostrum.
now you might want to know why i pull the kids even though i have the negative test result?
i'm very new with goats, started four years ago. i bought un knowingly positive animals. since this disease sometimes can hide for a long time, they talk about seroconvertion after years  Roll Eyes i don't want to take any chances.
if i have raised my own does on prevention and the herd stays negative, i might change to dam raising. but for the time beeing, every kid that is pre ordered and any replacement kids, will be pulled.
occasionally i have a doe that is raising some bucks for the freezer, i don't see any difference in development of the kids.  my bottle kids are not as shy tho and grow faster.
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imalilbirdie
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Posts: 19149


Texas


« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2009, 12:59:03 PM »

so you do keep your kids and raise them yourself?  I thought it was you that sold your kids at birth..I got confused again..sorry bout' that.

yes, I would as well..opt to allow the negative does to raise their own kids. 

I was under the assumption (read it some where, can't remember where it was though), that pasterized milk kills all the good stuff in it that the kids utilize.  I know with our bottle kids, I use Vit D whole milk and just recently started putting the infant baby oatmeal in each bottle..I guess it would be no different than using Vit D whole milk if you pasterize it.  I don't take our kids from their mothers of course.  But when Socks passed on, and had a 3 week baby on her, I of course raised D.G. on the bottle.  Then Snow birthed her kids and Snow's mother stole them from her, Snow wouldn't take them back (Snow was a FF and afraid to look at them fearing Mom would pound her again), I pulled those off and bottle fed them but milked Snow for their milk.  They did just fine and were sold as bottle babies..one to Candace and one to another gentleman who bought 3 bucks from me.  They are both spoiled rotten, but Candace put Boyd on a Nubian Doe for milk and Boyd took right to that udder for her.  Scotch, the other baby, he was raised as a house baby and is spoiled rotten. 

I love the bottle babies and I would have raised Boyd and Scotch myself, except we were antcipating this move to Louisiana and I didn't want to have bottle babies with a long move like that.  But soon afterward, I got D.G. when her mother passed. 
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~ Birdie ~
Susanne
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« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2009, 01:37:54 PM »

yes i sell some kids but there are still plenty that are raised to adulthood to see how the breeding worked out Wink
there are some believers that say if you feed only pasteurized the kids will not grow and/or even die. this is plain not true.
just right now i have four kids that were born the end of october. strictly raised on pasteirized milk and from time to time kefir in the bottle. one of the bucklings has well over 60 lb. one buckling and one doeling 53lb and the smallest doeling has 48lb. if pasteurized milk would be so bad, i doubt they would grow like they do Wink
i also feed vit d milk from the store and if i don't have enough milk, i still mix it in the goat milk. the first kids i had on vit d milk were not as ggrowthy as the one on goats milk. i think it has only to do with the fat content. i have no idea how much protein is in store bought cows milk? maybe that is contributing to the difference too.
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imalilbirdie
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Posts: 19149


Texas


« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2009, 01:45:21 PM »

I will say..supplementing the infant oatmeal cereal in each bottle made a WORLD of difference in my baby D.G.  That baby is huge!  She's bigger than the dam raised doeling out there and is only a week older than the dam raised doeling. 

I'm glad Dragon suggested I try it..and I'm glad I did.  Our kids are about that size if not bigger at that same age, as your kids are..but heck ours are born on average 10.5 pounds at birth..we've ranged in weights of 9.5 to 13 pounds the last kidding, and the kidding before that they ranged 8.5 to 15 pounds..the years prior to that they were about normal sized kids. 

This years crop of kids were all bred to the kiko buck (my avatar buck)..and the does had an extremely easy time birthing those kids even at higher birth weights.  Didn't assist a single doe bred to that buck..but the prior year bred to the boer buck we had..(we breed 6 at a time, wait a few days and do 6 more, wait a few and do this all the way through until they are all bred), the first 6 (mixed both FF's and Experienced does) out of thoe we assist 4 does and only had 8 live kids, where as we should have had at least 12.  Was not a good buck to breed too for sure.  This year those same does had kids just as big and had absolutely no troubles what so ever. 

Yes, I will continue to use the Vit D milk, but if I have goats milk available of course I'll feed that.  But I won't pasterize it. 
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~ Birdie ~
imalilbirdie
Herdmasters
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Posts: 19149


Texas


« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2009, 04:58:40 PM »

most milk is feed to the kids after it is pasteurized, we drink the milk, i make cheese and i have some boarding clients. (goat shares) Wink
i do not know what benefit molasses should have to my does as we are good without it.  molasses is sugar and depletes the body of b- vitamins.
it works very well on my farm Wink

till now, all i have needed at kidding times are lots of towels. Smiley
baby pen in the house for the first hours or days if it is cold heat treated frozen colostrum, (speeds up the time where kids get something in their tummy  Wink ) and iodine for dipping the navel. 
i use pop bottles and have no problems with them.
i don't feed molasses in their feed nor do i offer molasses water. i like to give does vit b complex after kidding. for the first couple of days i keep an eye on their temperature, that is all i do.  so far, it worked for me Wink
if i have have to re arrange kids, i rarely use lube as the doe has so much gue that it is sufficient as lubricant. Wink

Susanne..I didn't post about this earlier because I wanted to have my facts straight..but I've researched and researched and have a call into my Vet, (she's calling me back) about this b-complex given after birthing.  You see my Vet is a caprine specialist and she highly suggested the warm molasses water to me..but never said a word to me about the sugars depleting the b-vitamins..in all the years I've been in goats, I've never once heard of it.  Now, the molasses water serves many purposes..and I don't dispute what you say but I seriously doubt that is the case..I would like to know where you found that information at..because I do abundantly give molasses to my goats, both in feed and in warm water..especially in the winter months.

Now, Molasses has many purposes..
One it contains Iron..helps to restore the iron from the blood lose after kidding (natural irons--can't over dose that)
Two it contains Fat..to help keep them warm..and they need that birthing in the winter months
Three it contains sugars..the sugars restores their energy quicker..they need that energy to produce heat for their bodies, tend their babies, and produce their milk
Four they like it..lol. Smiley
So those are some pretty good reasons to give it..and if it were bad for them I know for a fact my Vet would have told me that..but I'll check with her anyway. 

I'd like to know where you got that info so I can take that with me when I talk to my Vet.
Thanks!! Smiley
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~ Birdie ~
Susanne
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« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2009, 07:49:57 PM »

birdie this is what i learned in med school 25 years ago in germany.
i will see if i can find anything similar online.
a healthy rumen full of good hay, works like a furnice. that should keep the goats warm. iron is interfering with copper absorbtion why i don't feed minrals with too much iron in it. also, does feed a diet rich in molasses, tent to have more problems with congested udders when they freshen.
i bet they like. put a bowl salad and a bowl of sweets in front of your children. guess what they will choose Wink
i don't know the requirement meat goats have, i know this works on my farm.
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Susanne
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« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2009, 07:54:24 PM »

birdie if you do google search about sugar and b vitamin, you will get a lot of hits Wink
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Sally P
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Posts: 8923


New Sharon, Maine


« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2009, 08:43:57 PM »

Hmmmm---that's the first time I ever heard anyone supplement with B Compex after kidding.  I guess we all use molasses and warm water.  THe molasses isn't a lot---it's about 1/4 to 1/2 cup in a pail of warm water.  They may or may not drink it.  I know that grain that has molasses does not have a super amount in it.  As our grain is specially mixed, we kind of regulate the amount of molasses in the mix.  We tend to use more in the winter because it is so cold here and they need the added energy and warmth.  I do agree that feed especially rich or heavy in molasses could cause a problem---however---most grain mixes do not have an excess amount in it. 
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Sandie
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« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2009, 11:36:37 PM »

i give my new mommas a shot of b complex and a shot of a d & e. that was on my vets adv ise from years ago it does seem to help get their energy and production up faster than the ones i haven't given it too. i also give them some molasses water and have seen a vast improvment in energy level since i learned to do that.
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pearplum
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Posts: 1437


The Lincolnshire Fens. England.


« Reply #26 on: January 28, 2009, 01:24:26 AM »


  Another obvious benefit for giving the molasses water is, as Birdie, says, they like it. So they drink more than they would if it was just plain water and that's just what they need when they  have given birth and are starting into milk production. Vital to keep those fluids up.
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imalilbirdie
Herdmasters
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Posts: 19149


Texas


« Reply #27 on: January 28, 2009, 02:10:34 AM »

Susanne ty for the answer.  I didn't get to speak with my Vet last night, our weather turned even nastier so I imagine she was really busy with emergencies and couldn't call me back..it's a simple question time, so I can't blame her..but I will do this research and ask her about it.

I've never heard of nor have I had my vet suggest b-complex or any other vit other than nutri drench after kidding.  I give b-complex if it's been a rough delivery but that's only been on two does out of all these years. 

I've seen nothing but good come of the molasses water, and my molasses on my feed hasn't hurt my goats one ounce..if you look at photo's of them, you'll see they lack for nothing.  I wouldn't think it would be any different for dairy goats.  I know hundreds of dairy goat breeders that do feed the molasses, as well has I know even more dairy cow breeders who use the molasses.  Being born and raised on a farm all my life, we've used it for over 48 yrs.  Not one complication with it yet. 

I recall when my son would have a fever the doctors would suggest sugar water, instead of milk..so something has to be some what right with it. 

I don't know, but I do know that I haven't ever seen any complications come from feeding molasses..like Sally, I have my grain mill mixed special.  I don't add as much molasses in the summer months because it generates heat..but in the winter months I do go heavier with the molasses.

Our farm produces some pretty nice kids in my bias opinion Smiley Wink , growing by leaps and bounds, gaining more rapidly without being creep fed than most farms I've witnessed..so It can't be too bad.  Our goats are rarely sick if ever sick, no udder/milk issues here as of this date in time, our goats produce a lot of milk to raise kids as nice as they raise. 

I don't know, I'll speak with my vet on this..see what she has to say.  Thanks for the info.
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~ Birdie ~
imalilbirdie
Herdmasters
Goat Genius
*****
Posts: 19149


Texas


« Reply #28 on: January 28, 2009, 07:22:07 AM »

I went to several reputable "goat" sites..(not human sites)..to do a little research on this molasses and b-complex stuff..here's what I'm finding..you may want to read this Susanne, these sites are used by licensed vets as well (for those Vets who know little to nothing about goats). 
This first one, is Fiasco Farms website..a goat formulated website.
this first link, scroll down to "grain and warm water" no where in this link did it say anything about the b-complex being given.
http://goatbeat.net/index.php?topic=3926.msg52431#msg52431
In this link they discuse the feeds..Fiasco farms actually uses a sweet horse grain mixture..just like I use..which was suggested to me very early in my years of goat herding when I first found GW..suggested to me by Sally P.  Which I had already been feeding our Pygmy's and nubian wether the sweet horse grain mix LONG before finding GW or receiving the suggestion..however, I did tweek it and add the BOSS to it after finding GW..now my grain runs 18 to 20% protein. No where in this link does it say anything bad about the molasses.
http://fiascofarm.com/goats/feeding.htm#grain
In this link they actually use Molasses for treatment of Ketosis & pregnancy toxemia
http://fiascofarm.com/goats/ketosis.htm

This next site is another very reputable site..a very long lived website..called Onion Creek/Tennessee meat goats..here are some links to what they say about molasses..
First one is for the kids..scroll down to the Molasses..
http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/goatmedications.html
this next link will show what Onion Creek giving molasses to the mom after delivery, scroll down to the 13th paragraph.."Bonding problems can occur..."
http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/letthekiddingbegin06.html

This next site is Goatwisdom..here again they speak of the warm molasses water..
first with the kidding, as it is in Onion Creek and Fiaso Farms..
http://www.goatwisdom.com/ch1baby_care/deliveries.html
this next link is one where they discuse the goat off feed..the third recommendation is Molasses
http://www.goatwisdom.com/ch8diseases/off_feed.html

Ok, I think I've gotten my point across that there are several very reputable breeders/websites out there that can prove that molasses is not a bad thing..in all reality a good thing for "goats".  Susanne..I don't mean to disbute you..I'm just trying to enlighten you to the benefits of molasses.  You say you've been in goats for 4 yrs..and your way works for you and that's fantastic, but maybe this will actually better your program, rather than hurt your program.  I found no where in any of my research within these three sites above that Molasses depletes the b-vitamins in a goat. 
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~ Birdie ~
Susanne
Guest
« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2009, 08:00:06 AM »

birdie, if you go to my site and look at my goats (big pictures nothing to hide Wink ) do you think my girls are lacking in something?
i can not care less about the onion creek farm, yuk (please take it as personal opinion Wink )
fiasco has her management tweeked for her location and her management.  i have a lot of respect what molly put up on her site and for new comers t is a very nice start. 

sally all people you know feed molasses, all people i know know, don't Wink
i have no desire to change my management, it's not broke, don't fix it.

if somebody want to feed molasses , give newborn kids whisky and coffee, do it.
this is not what i practice or recommend to people that buy animals from me.
hey, there are so many ways to raise goats and everybody has to do what works for them.
i don't  Smiley

birdie one tip, do you know karin christensen? she would be an excellent source on goat biology, can things explain much better than i do.
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