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Topic: Bottle Jaw/Barber Pole worm  (Read 35957 times)
Gagie
Guest
« Reply #60 on: July 09, 2010, 06:42:55 AM »

thanks for answering, do you know if there is any treatment for the gound/barn area?  These are nasty worms, NEVER hade these before in all my years past with goats.  One of my does is still fighting this thing. 
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Sunshine
Guest
« Reply #61 on: July 09, 2010, 07:12:02 AM »

Liming the barn area will help with any of the parasites. Also Not letting them graze their lots/pastures down past 4-6 inches will help also.
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shantufarms
Bottle Babies
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Posts: 1


« Reply #62 on: November 04, 2012, 08:44:24 PM »

I have been reading the comments about bottle jaw does anyone know what causes bottle jaw for sure . I have been told differnt things don't know what too believe, trying to learn, Thanks for any and help Dennis.
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imalilbirdie
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« Reply #63 on: November 04, 2012, 08:49:46 PM »

99% of the time bottle jaw is caused by the barber pole worm and can be caused by multiple types of  worm over loads of any kind.  Usually when you have bottle jaw its not the worm load thats hard to cure its the anemia that is secondary to bottle jaw.  80% of the time the goat dies of anemia rather than bottle jaw.  Treating both is the key and treating until they are completely cured is mandiory.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2012, 08:52:32 PM by imalilbirdie » Logged

~ Birdie ~
dragonlair
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« Reply #64 on: November 04, 2012, 09:27:53 PM »

Bottle jaw is the result of  severe anemia, usually caused by barberpole worm overload. The iron starved blood leaks serum thru the veins and pools under the skin, mostly under the jaw. This is a life threatening issue. The worms need to be killed and the anemia treated asap.
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DragonLair Farm and Kennel in Central Maine with Nubians, Lamanchas and Oberhasli. Of course, combinations of 2 or more breeds happens also.
Dunroven
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« Reply #65 on: November 13, 2012, 03:56:47 PM »

I am dealing with BPW and BJ right now.  I am working on a goat that is up and down.  I gave Panacur, 10 cc and then 10 days later (yesterday) gave another 10 cc.  I have been giving him 5 cc of red cell daily, 2 B complex vitamins and a multivitamin.  He also developed pneumonia, so Pen G 5 cc daily, now for 2 days, and Pepto for the diarrhea.  I'm giving him 2 cartons of yogurt with active cultures as well.  He is still white in the eyes, and has been this way for a couple of weeks.  He will NOT stand up.  I'm sure he's too weak, but what do I do now?  I have tried working his legs to keep them from getting atrophied, but I see on here some of you have given red cell 5 cc twice a day.  I'm thinking maybe I will do that starting tonight.  He has been eating raspberry leaves and twigs, alfalfa hay, grass hay, and I have been giving him a water/electrolyte mixture, with 2 TBSP honey, 1/4 tsp salt, 1/4 tsp baking soda, and warm water.  He loves the warm water!

Please tell me what else I can do?
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imalilbirdie
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« Reply #66 on: November 14, 2012, 06:39:16 AM »

Ok, to be honest with you Dunroven...the panacur will not kill the Barber Pole worm..you need a stronger wormer than that, and I highly suggest that you use Cydectin Pour On for cattle given orally to goats, at the dosage of 1cc per 20lbs of body weight and follow up again in 10 days.  Secondly..a single dose of Panacur/Safeguard is like giving nothing but water to your goats...Panacure/Safeguard is a regimen wormer, needs to be given once daily for 5 days, dosing at 1cc per 10lbs of body weight.  Panacure/Safeguard ONLY KILLS tape, pin, round and hook worms.  This is why your boy isn't getting any better.

Once you kill the Barber Pole worm, your battle as you can see is not over...that's when your Redcell will start to put this boy back on the mend...it will take several weeks and maybe longer to get him back on his feet again.  Mixing other items that contains high iron amounts with the redcell can be dangerous due to overdosing..once Iron is over dosed, there is no cure and the animal will die.  Take caution in what you're giving him and how much of it you're giving.

If he has diarrhea, then pull him off every thing except electrolyte water, pepto (every hour until it begins to firm up and then go every 2 hours, until firmer and then every 3 hours until it's back to pebbles again--dosing at least 5cc's), and dry hay..The honey will cause more diarrhea..I wouldn't give him any salt or baking soda with the electrolyte water...you can make the electrolyte water warm, and be doing more good for him than the honey/salt/soda mixture.

Keep us posted on how he's doing.
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~ Birdie ~
cornerstoneboer
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Northern Michigan (Near Cadillac or Traverse City)


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« Reply #67 on: December 16, 2012, 04:21:50 AM »

Okay I need to add my two cents AND ask for your two cents.   We have a 9 month old doeling (and her sister but her sister isn't nearly as "bad" as her) who has what the vet called "stomach worms".  After doing my own fecals the worm eggs LOOK like Haemonchus Contortus, but could be a generic worm I suppose.  Little Glory has been showing symptoms for about 4 weeks with severe diarrhea, sever weight loss and now severe anemia.  We never had noticeable bottle jaw with her, but since they are not grazing (but eating from elevated hay racks) that is very well possible (the fluid settles at the lowest point and if the head is not down grazing all day it WON'T settle there plain and simple).  I did a treatment with Moxidectin (Quest horse paste, same ingredient as Cydectin pour on) and didn't show a reduction in egg counts.  I did treat with Fenbendazole (Safe-guard horse paste) and I am waiting until day 10 to retest fecals (which is the way I was told to check and I'm sticking to that at this point  Wink )  I have done supportive treatments including electrolytes (which I had stopped a day or so ago and now I'm glad after reading Birdie's above post about it can make the scours worse), b-complex (injections taken orally), a round of penicillin (5 days) which I had started for (honestly) no "good" reason but didn't want to stop just in case. She was also given pro biotics.  Yesterday I found her "down".  Laying on her side, unable to get up and bleating weakly.  I actually called hubby out to the barn to euthanize her because I thought she was close to dead anyway.  However after he came out we sat her up comfortably and I gave her the oral dose of b-complex and pro biotics I was bringing out to her anyway.  I then went into the house and made up some of Sally P's mix (molasses, whiskey, coffee).  I dosed her at 3CC then about 45 min later dosed her again.  It did seem to help with her energy level somewhat, but not the weakness. She "scooted" over to the food dish and took water from a syringe.  About another hour later I ended up realizing the extent of her anemia and ran to town to pick up Iron -100 (pig injectable).  Hubby helped me inject her with 2cc of it (VERY hard to do considering the emaciation of this poor girl) IM (because doing Iron shots SQ is BAD).  Well, hubby and I got up a 3am and he went out to check on her for me.  She was up and walking!! Eating and drinking (which to be honest she NEVER lost her appetite at all yet). 

She looks a ton better, but here is where my QUESTION(S) comes into play:  What is the best supportive therapy regime to now follow? 

I see lots about the Red Cell, but I had chosen the Iron injectable yesterday for faster results.  I do see that the shot should NOT be followed up for 10 days.  I sure would rather have something to give her orally though (a lot less stress involved for both of us...she really likes anything I give her in a syringe). What exactly is the dosage of the redcell for goat (by weight)?

 Her stools are still very loose, should I be giving her pepto?  I actually hesitate to do that sometimes just because I don't know if will interfere with or adversely affect the absorption of any meds (wormers, pro biotics etc) that I may be giving at the time.  But I know I need to take care of this worse than "soft serve" but not as a bad as "watery" poopy. 

The emaciation is painful for ME to touch.  Any supportive therapy I could/should be doing there? She currently has free access to a nice grassy 2nd cut hay AND a thicker stemmier "hay" with lots of raspberry in it.  She seems to like both......  Is that (and her grain) enough to bring her back?  Can I give her something else that is packed full of nutrients and calories to build her body back up again?

I know the worms need to be taken care of and I am working on that.  My vet didn't seem to have an issue with my using Fenbendazole (he didn't have any in stock, but told me it was fine to get it at TSC).   I see info on Lavimasole (sp) what brandname does that come under?  If that is the brand name, what drug is the actual drug?  If it is a reccommended drug then I would need to know where to get it as I don't think I've seen it locally at least not at TSC (perhaps my local grainery would have it).  I don't think I had much luck with the Moxidectin, I will wait to see how the results look on the Fenbendazole and if they are bad I need to move on to something else.  If I need to "move on" in wormers what are your individual reccommendations?  I know every area is different as far as resistance goes, but I gotta start (finish?) somewhere.
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Northern Michigan (Near Cadillac or Traverse City)
Boers, Kikos, Myotonics (and their crosses)
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imalilbirdie
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« Reply #68 on: December 16, 2012, 05:16:05 AM »

First off Lavimasole is just as dangerous if not more dangerous (petitions to remove it from the market are in force at this time, and may already have been removed from the market) than Valbazen.

You know...the only wormer I've found that kills the barber pole worm is the Cydectin...I always suggest the Cydectin pour on for cattle given orally to goats, dosed at 1cc per 20lbs of body weight and redosed again in 10 days with Bottle Jaw, however there is a goat/sheep Cydectin oral drench (I'll have to find the dosage)...the cattle cydectin injectable is terrible strong, and I've seen deaths and goats that failed to thrive after being given the injectable. 

The supportive treatments that you're looking for...is it for the anemia? or the emaciation?  With the anemia, after giving the Iron shot, you can't give any thing else for awhile.  The Emaciation...that's a different story...however as long as she has diarrhea, we can't give her any type of grain, no treat, no any thing like that...Just dry hay and electrolyte water...you can give her probiotics once daily for a few days, and you can give pumpkin (I use libbys canned pumpkin), syllium, slippery elm, or keopectate for the diarrhea, but I don't think I'd use Pepto right now, maybe later you can do that...I wouldn't be giving her any more antibiotic since she doesn't need that, unless her body temp is elevated.  Bcomplex will stimulate her appetite, and I think I'd give her just a pill or two (one, once daily) of Thiamine (B1)

I want to tell you again...and I don't know how to get you to understand...a single dose of Safeguard is doing you absolutely NO GOOD what so ever.  It takes dosing safeguard at 1cc per 10lbs of body weight once daily for 5 days to even kill the worms it does it..(hook, pin, tape, round)...Safeguard WILL NOT kill barber pole worm...absolutely will not, and it's like giving her water to only give one dose.

Her emaciation is going to take a long time to come back...work slow and easy with her...gradually increasing her grain back up to where she should be.  I'd do the bcomplex 4 days on and 2 days off...and I'd do the thiamine once daily for a few days.
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~ Birdie ~
Sally P
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New Sharon, Maine


« Reply #69 on: December 16, 2012, 07:50:19 AM »

I would get some B Complex into her.  You should also use a wormer that takes care of tape worms as she's at an age when that can be a problem also.
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cornerstoneboer
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Northern Michigan (Near Cadillac or Traverse City)


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« Reply #70 on: December 16, 2012, 08:39:31 AM »

Well, Birdie as I stated, I did NOT have luck with the Moxidectin (as what is in Cydectin pour on).   OTHER than that, valbazen (which I had heard on here was terrible) and levamsiole (which I didn't know where to find and now here it may be as awful as the valbazen), Fenbendazole was my next choice (perhaps I should have gone with Ivermectin?).  The vet was hoping that going outside the Ivermectin family (which Moxidectin is somehow in?) would put a dent in the worm load.  He is a large animal vet with some goat knowledge, but they certainly are not his speciality or anything.   I WILL NOT KNOW if it did a ton of  good until the 10th day and WILL NOT dose with anything else until then, and IF I see marked change in the fecal, I will redose with Fenbendazole.   I'm afraid that just throwing wormers in there is just as bad as what is going on now especially if I don't wait to see if they are working!!  I just wanted option number three to be "ready" if I need it.  (Which by your comments, Birdie, I most likely will  Sad
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Northern Michigan (Near Cadillac or Traverse City)
Boers, Kikos, Myotonics (and their crosses)
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imalilbirdie
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Texas


« Reply #71 on: December 17, 2012, 05:53:58 AM »

Did you follow up with the cydectin after the first dosing?  Some times, Barber pole worms need that second dosing.  Usually the cydectin will work well..it's the after affects of barber pole that causes you the most issues...such as the anemia and as you can are experiencing the emaciation.  Those can be the hardest of the battle to win.
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~ Birdie ~
dragonlair
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« Reply #72 on: December 17, 2012, 11:12:47 AM »

In some places cydectin is losing it's effectiveness too. That may be true there. I know it can't be used in  parts of texas because it just isn't working.

I swear by Valbazen and Levamasol. I have never had a problem with them and they do a great job on the worms I need to target (BPW and Liver flukes). As long as you don't use them on pregnant does, there is no problem. In fact only Fenbendazole and Valbazen are labeled for use n goats.

I swear by the injectable iron. The dosage was given to me by a vet who does know goats. If they are pale, they need that iron. Their stomach destroys most of the iron you feed them, so injectable goes to work right away, full strength. Since they are so anemic, its almost impossible to overdose. The overdosing comes when you give more than the required dose or you give it to animals that are not anemic.

One f the b vitamins (B12 maybe?) is also needed for iron absorption, so if you give a shot of B complex, that will also help her body utilize the injection faster.
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DragonLair Farm and Kennel in Central Maine with Nubians, Lamanchas and Oberhasli. Of course, combinations of 2 or more breeds happens also.
imalilbirdie
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Texas


« Reply #73 on: December 18, 2012, 05:25:20 AM »

The deaths I've seen from Valbazen and Levamasol...has been enough to tell me, they didn't do good research before they labeled it safe for goats...pure and simple I've seen far too much from far too many members in this forum to know it's deadly...I had three Does show reaction to Valbazen, and I know I was spot on with the dosage and their weight, (and I had never had issue with it on the bucks in prior years--never used it on Does), and had I not known the side affects and what to watch for..those three would have died...

Advising to use it...is waiting to see some one's animal get deadly sick or die.  That's what I know first hand about these wormers...abortions, deformed kids, dead adults from overdosing,

Even cattle show symptoms to the Levamasole...Cattle herders aren't using it any more...or least the ones I know aren't.  Too many side affects.

Never say "never"...as it will come back and show you "never" has an ending.
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~ Birdie ~
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