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Sally P
Goat Genius
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Posts: 8923


New Sharon, Maine


« on: January 22, 2008, 11:25:02 AM »

This thread should be used for dire emergencies only.  Someone will get back to you asap after you post.  Please note that posts to this thread will be deleted within 24 hours after the emergency is resolved.  Reason---so that pertinent information and emergencies are not lost in a lot of old posts.
Please keep posts to this thread on an EMERGENCY need only.
Thanks!!
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ihavefarmfresheggs
Bottle Babies
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Posts: 9



« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2016, 07:48:13 AM »

This thread should be used for dire emergencies only.  Someone will get back to you asap after you post.  Please note that posts to this thread will be deleted within 24 hours after the emergency is resolved.  Reason---so that pertinent information and emergencies are not lost in a lot of old posts.
Please keep posts to this thread on an EMERGENCY need only.
Thanks!!
My very pregnant Nubian was diagnosed yesterday with pregnancy toxemia.  Her front legs are starting to "freeze" up in a bent position.  She can get up on her front knees and stand up on her back legs.  We've been going out and stretching out her front legs several times a day, and they are improving but he told me I need to make a sling to hoist her up several times a day.  The sling I made is not working.  Can someone, anyone help me figure out how to make one that will work?  Also, he gave her three shots. 1. A long lasting antibiotic. 2. A long lasting anti-inflammatory.  3. A "lots of vitamins" shot.  I've read that I need to give her CMPK several times a day till she is back on her feet.   http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f186/ketoais-pregnancy-toxemia-101076/ What are your thoughts on that?  Should I also continue to give her anti-inflammatory?
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"As if we could waste time without injuring eternity."
Henry David Thoureau
nancy d
Herdmaster
Goat Genius
*****
Posts: 6053

N.W. WA


« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2016, 11:28:23 AM »

If the anti inflammatory is banamine it is given 3 days max.
I have never made a sling but Pam has.
Will she take tums for you?   Will read  Goatspot link in a few minutes here.
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dragonlair
Herdmaster
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Posts: 9678



« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2016, 09:41:22 PM »

You need to get calories into her. She is not taking in enough nutrition to keep herself and those developing kids healthy. Up her grain ration (SLOWLY!). Give her Karo or Molasses as a drench several times a day. Probiotics, free choice hay (alfalfa if you can get it), alfalfa pellets of you can't get the hay. Rice bran meal will provide safe calories in the form of fat. I feed soaked beet pulp for added calories, calcium and moisture. Vitamin B complex given daily in large doses may help her appetite and should help keep her from developing goat polio.
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DragonLair Farm and Kennel in Central Maine with Nubians, Lamanchas and Oberhasli. Of course, combinations of 2 or more breeds happens also.
imalilbirdie
Herdmasters
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*****
Posts: 19599


Texas


« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2016, 05:06:14 AM »

You need to get calories into her. She is not taking in enough nutrition to keep herself and those developing kids healthy. Up her grain ration (SLOWLY!). Give her Karo or Molasses as a drench several times a day. Probiotics, free choice hay (alfalfa if you can get it), alfalfa pellets of you can't get the hay. Rice bran meal will provide safe calories in the form of fat. I feed soaked beet pulp for added calories, calcium and moisture. Vitamin B complex given daily in large doses may help her appetite and should help keep her from developing goat polio.

I totally agree with Dragonlair.  This Doe needs to be drenched with molasses or dark karo syrup water every hour, at least one pint.  She also needs high doses of calcium.  You just need to crush up 3 or 4 600mg human grade calcium pills and give her twice daily.  Make sure she eats her grain.  It's the lack of nutrition that causes Pregnancy Toxemia.  After she gives birth she may or may not relapse and that's called Ketosis.  Giving her B Complex (orally) will also help her appetite to increase and help her through all this.  A dose of Nutri Drench probably wouldn't hurt a thing either.  She DOES NOT NEED Banamine or any type of anti-inflammatory.  She needs that calcium and molasses water.

DO NOT GIVE THAT DOE CMPK!!!  She does not have milk fever.  CMPK will make her worse not better. 
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~ Birdie ~
ihavefarmfresheggs
Bottle Babies
*
Posts: 9



« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2016, 11:02:37 AM »

You need to get calories into her. She is not taking in enough nutrition to keep herself and those developing kids healthy. Up her grain ration (SLOWLY!). Give her Karo or Molasses as a drench several times a day. Probiotics, free choice hay (alfalfa if you can get it), alfalfa pellets of you can't get the hay. Rice bran meal will provide safe calories in the form of fat. I feed soaked beet pulp for added calories, calcium and moisture. Vitamin B complex given daily in large doses may help her appetite and should help keep her from developing goat polio.

I totally agree with Dragonlair.  This Doe needs to be drenched with molasses or dark karo syrup water every hour, at least one pint.  She also needs high doses of calcium.  You just need to crush up 3 or 4 600mg human grade calcium pills and give her twice daily.  Make sure she eats her grain.  It's the lack of nutrition that causes Pregnancy Toxemia.  After she gives birth she may or may not relapse and that's called Ketosis.  Giving her B Complex (orally) will also help her appetite to increase and help her through all this.  A dose of Nutri Drench probably wouldn't hurt a thing either.  She DOES NOT NEED Banamine or any type of anti-inflammatory.  She needs that calcium and molasses water.

DO NOT GIVE THAT DOE CMPK!!!  She does not have milk fever.  CMPK will make her worse not better. 
     I have been doing the alfalfa tabs several times a day.  I have been doing the warm molasses water several times a day as well as clean water.  I have been crushing up calcium pills, mixing them in molasses and letting her lick it up, or putting it in a syringe and shooting it (very slowly) down her throat when she won't lick it up, but only once a day. I will amend that.  I have been dosing her with propylene twice a day.  I have been giving her smaller amounts of grain five times a day. We are stretching out her front legs four times a day.  I have attempted to get her up in a sling but have not got the right pattern down yet.  We are on adjustment #3.
     The last time I caught her peeing on the ketone strip it registered between the trace and small colors.  As of this morning her bag is so tight that her milk is dripping out! Up to today it has been easy to feed her.  It's taking a LOT more patience and time to get her to eat.  I also am concerned about the birth.  Can she give birth laying down? She can still make it up on her front knees but she doesn't stay there for long.
     Thank you all so much for your help.  If the member that posted about the sling could post the link that would be great!  I have been all over goatspot.com and can not find  it.
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"As if we could waste time without injuring eternity."
Henry David Thoureau
ihavefarmfresheggs
Bottle Babies
*
Posts: 9



« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2016, 11:59:23 AM »

You need to get calories into her. She is not taking in enough nutrition to keep herself and those developing kids healthy. Up her grain ration (SLOWLY!). Give her Karo or Molasses as a drench several times a day. Probiotics, free choice hay (alfalfa if you can get it), alfalfa pellets of you can't get the hay. Rice bran meal will provide safe calories in the form of fat. I feed soaked beet pulp for added calories, calcium and moisture. Vitamin B complex given daily in large doses may help her appetite and should help keep her from developing goat polio.

I totally agree with Dragonlair.  This Doe needs to be drenched with molasses or dark karo syrup water every hour, at least one pint.  She also needs high doses of calcium.  You just need to crush up 3 or 4 600mg human grade calcium pills and give her twice daily.  Make sure she eats her grain.  It's the lack of nutrition that causes Pregnancy Toxemia.  After she gives birth she may or may not relapse and that's called Ketosis.  Giving her B Complex (orally) will also help her appetite to increase and help her through all this.  A dose of Nutri Drench probably wouldn't hurt a thing either.  She DOES NOT NEED Banamine or any type of anti-inflammatory.  She needs that calcium and molasses water.

DO NOT GIVE THAT DOE CMPK!!!  She does not have milk fever.  CMPK will make her worse not better. 

I just had a vet tell me to give her CMPK.  What do I do? Yes or no?
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"As if we could waste time without injuring eternity."
Henry David Thoureau
Julie H
Goat Genius
*****
Posts: 1799


Missouri


« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2016, 01:02:24 PM »

You need to get calories into her. She is not taking in enough nutrition to keep herself and those developing kids healthy. Up her grain ration (SLOWLY!). Give her Karo or Molasses as a drench several times a day. Probiotics, free choice hay (alfalfa if you can get it), alfalfa pellets of you can't get the hay. Rice bran meal will provide safe calories in the form of fat. I feed soaked beet pulp for added calories, calcium and moisture. Vitamin B complex given daily in large doses may help her appetite and should help keep her from developing goat polio.

I totally agree with Dragonlair.  This Doe needs to be drenched with molasses or dark karo syrup water every hour, at least one pint.  She also needs high doses of calcium.  You just need to crush up 3 or 4 600mg human grade calcium pills and give her twice daily.  Make sure she eats her grain.  It's the lack of nutrition that causes Pregnancy Toxemia.  After she gives birth she may or may not relapse and that's called Ketosis.  Giving her B Complex (orally) will also help her appetite to increase and help her through all this.  A dose of Nutri Drench probably wouldn't hurt a thing either.  She DOES NOT NEED Banamine or any type of anti-inflammatory.  She needs that calcium and molasses water.

DO NOT GIVE THAT DOE CMPK!!!  She does not have milk fever.  CMPK will make her worse not better. 

I just had a vet tell me to give her CMPK.  What do I do? Yes or no?


If you are giving her another source of calcium ( as in pill form) I would not give her the CMPK.     I know that is used in cows that have milk fever, but it is very caustic and causes many of them to also go off feed because it bothers their throat. 

I would do as Birdie & dragon have advised and get the calcium in her by pill form.  So many  vets have no idea about goats at all.  She is better today?  when is she due?
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nancy d
Herdmaster
Goat Genius
*****
Posts: 6053

N.W. WA


« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2016, 01:46:08 PM »

Yes she can birth laying down. Most of my girls do.
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imalilbirdie
Herdmasters
Goat Genius
*****
Posts: 19599


Texas


« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2016, 06:09:56 AM »

The sling that I use is a home made one.  It will take two people to lift her using the one I make.  We used an old King size bed sheet.  We cut it in 12" wide long strips.  The wider it is the better support under the stomach...especially since this girl is pregnant.  So if you went 24" wide that would do just fine.  One person on each side of her, and lift her up at the same time.  While you are lifting you'll need to be close by her side, so that she doesn't roll over inside the sling, and lifting as you walk closer to her...now with that said, you'll have to draw up on the sheet..meaning pulling the sheet as you walk like tugging a rope , you'll have to drop the excess, and hold what's closest to her. Now here's another way to do larger animals, that are heavier than what two people can lift.  If you have a come-along or a pulley devise of some kind you can take that long sheet and tie the ends together, best to use a bolo knot if you can, otherwise make a good strong knot, take a heavy cord and run it around that knot area and hook it to the come along or the pulley devise.  Hang that come along or the pulley devise way above this goat's stomach.  Now as you start pulling or with the come along wrenching this thing up tight, you'll need to go slowly and you'll need to make sure she's in the sheet nice and flat and it's pulling up equally on each side of her and around her stomach.  This is an easy method, much easier to do than to explain it. 

Listen the more you're telling me about this, the more I'm thinking those babies are laying on her spinal cord and has her semi paralyzed at this point.  When she gives birth to the babies, then this will all go away.  She most definitely will need assistance in delivery, as the spinal cord pain will hurt so bad she may not push them out.  This could be the cause of her not getting up...if she has a pinched spinal cord, she's in pain, and she won't get up.  There isn't a lot you can do for her except make her comfortable until those babies are born.  If you give her a steroid or pain killer that will affect the babies and you don't want that.

If this Doe is eating, and drinking, and getting what you say she's getting, then something else is wrong.  CMPK will strip out all her B vitamins from her system.  Thus this is a dangerous thing if she does not have milk fever.  CMPK burns the throat something awful...so it absolutely can not be given straight to them.  You must put it in with a carrier liquid, such as molasses water, maybe even some grape juice or something she'll like real good, gatoraide will work too...however those carrier liquids will need to be cut with water as not to give her diarrhea.  CMPK when it strips all the B vitamins from their system has a secondary issue called Polio, and can go into Listeria...these two things are DEADLY to goats, and requires much more medication and doctoring (typically the Vet is called in and the goat is kept at the clinic), than what you're dealing with now. 

If you do decide to go with the CMPK...take her off all the supplement Calcium that you're giving now.  Be prepared to give her high doses of B12, Bcomplex and B1.  CMPK is designed for Milk Fever, not pregnancy toxemia.  Your Doe does not have milk fever. 

Listen, something that I use that all my goats seemed to really like and did well on, is cooked oatmeal...yeppers the human form of oatmeal.  Cook up a cup of that, put a dab of milk in it (just a teaspoon or so), use the molasses or dark karo syrup (just a little), and put some fruit of some sort in it, such as raisins, (just a few as this will cause diarrhea), or blue berries, or black berries, or raspberries (again, just a few of them).  Offer this to her with her calcium in it...crush that calcium up real powdery (increase the amount of calcium you're giving too--if you're giving 2 pills twice daily, then give her 6 pills twice daily--crush them up real good) and add that to the oatmeal...mix the pill powder with some molasses first, and then add it to the oatmeal.

She probably isn't wanting to eat so well because she's hurting.  Pain will make them stop eating.  Give her 4.5 cc's of Bcomplex orally once daily.  That will increase her appetite.

Now, with that sling thing...you need to be careful slinging her up.  Pregnant, and a spinal cord injury, can cause more harm to kids and the injury than good.  Is she chewing cud?  If so, leave her be, don't try to force her to get up.  I had a Doe once that had an awful delivery, absolutely awful, the Vet figured she'd die in 24 to 48 hours...but she didn't...however, she was down for 5 weeks.  She didn't get up that entire time.  She will lay in the proper position and not flat out, but she wouldn't get up for love nor money.  She survived and did very very well indeed.  So her laying down isn't a bad thing, especially if those babies are on that spinal cord. 

I have a feeling you're getting very confused with what we advise you to do and what Goatspot advises you to do, and now the Vet is telling you as well.  You poor thing, you just want your Doe better, but if you get too many conflicting pieces of advice, it can really be confusing as what to do and when to do it.  If that happens, please, please PLEASE...do not hesitate to pick one and stick with that one.  Throwing all kinds of different stuff at that Doe could be more harmful than not doing any thing at all.  This forum will NOT be offended if you stay with Goatspot, or you stay with what you're Vet tells you to do (we never say to take our advise over your Vets advise--but Vets are known to not know much about Goats)...but please, pick one that won't be confusing you.  We need you level headed, wits with you, and doctoring this Doe to save her life.  Your Doe is the most important thing.
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~ Birdie ~
dragonlair
Herdmaster
Goat Genius
*****
Posts: 9678



« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2016, 03:44:04 PM »

I use CMPK liquid, orally. It does not seem to burn the throat like the gel does. Mine actully seem to like it.

They have found a link between milk fever and toxemia/ketosis, so maybe that is why the vet suggested CMPK. As Birdie said, if you are using that, stop the tums or calcium pills. Alfalfa in fine to feed, even with the CMPK. Tractor supply has an oral drench similar to CMPK (I forgot what it was called)

Be careful of using the propaline Glycol (spelling is way off!). That stuff burns their throat and is can cause a major reduction in appetite. Its great for cattle, but goats digestive system is much more sensitive than a cows.

She should be ok kidding while lying down, most of mine do that also. However, you may want to be there to assist. Where she has been laying down and weak, her muscle tone will be weak and she may need help pushing those kids out.

Once she gets those kids out, she may rebound quickly.
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DragonLair Farm and Kennel in Central Maine with Nubians, Lamanchas and Oberhasli. Of course, combinations of 2 or more breeds happens also.
ihavefarmfresheggs
Bottle Babies
*
Posts: 9



« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2016, 03:06:23 PM »

It has been overwhelming.  I have started the oatmeal with the molasses and calcium.  She will only eat anything for so long and then I have to step it up to something else.  I have also started homemade kefir with molasses and the calcium and magnesium crushed up in it.  She has been eating seedless apples and bananas very well as well as kale.  The comment you made about her spine triggered something for me.  When I was feeling her babies today she would lift her spine up as if she was hurting.  I am not going to make her get up in the sling until after she has birthed.  I'm just doing everything I can to keep her eating, hydrated and as comfortable as she can be.  Her udder is huge and shiny, her tendons by her tail are soft and squishy.  I love her so much...  I can't tell you all what a blessing you have been to me and Isabella.  I never did hear anything back from goatspot.com.  I have decided against the CMPK.  She has had two days of a negative result on the test strip.  I'm out there every hour now during the day and three times throughout the night.  We are all exhausted and running on fumes.  We just really need her to give birth to these babies so that we can all bounce back.  God bless you all.  Please don't delete this feed yet.  I refer back to it periodically to make sure that I am not forgetting anything.  Please continue to keep us in your prayers!
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"As if we could waste time without injuring eternity."
Henry David Thoureau
ihavefarmfresheggs
Bottle Babies
*
Posts: 9



« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2016, 03:27:25 PM »

She is chewing her cud, grinding her teeth, and moaning with every breath.  It is heartbreaking to listen to. 
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"As if we could waste time without injuring eternity."
Henry David Thoureau
ihavefarmfresheggs
Bottle Babies
*
Posts: 9



« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2016, 04:41:08 PM »

I just did another test strip.  The toxemia is coming back.  Putting her back on propylene glycol.  30ml 2X a day is what I had her on.  I think that I should keep her on it at least until the birth.  Any thoughts?  I'm also bumping her up to the high level vit. B complex.  Saturday she was having pancake poop and my friend, who also has goats, brought it over and we dosed her with it.  Her poop went back to normal and it seems to help her appetite more then the b-max. Sat. and Sun. she ate great.  We went back to ours yesterday and today and today getting her to eat has been rough!  Sorry if I am rambling or repeating myself.  I'm a little loopy from the lack of sleep and stress.
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"As if we could waste time without injuring eternity."
Henry David Thoureau
nancy d
Herdmaster
Goat Genius
*****
Posts: 6053

N.W. WA


« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2016, 05:04:06 PM »

You certainly must be loopy with keeping up no one is going to notice repeating yourself you have your hand heart & brain full right now.
Maybe try to give her stale DARK beer to help rumen function. Prayers for you & Isabella, sounds like she will birth anytime very soon.
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