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Topic: Lgd is pregnant and I am clueless -  (Read 11463 times)
rgbdab
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« on: February 17, 2010, 08:49:07 AM »

I need all the wisdom, experience and advice I can get. 

Sadie is a 2 years old 1/2 GP-1/2 Anatolian and the dad is a 1 yr old 1/2 GP - 1/2 anatolian.

Sadie will be due next month, March 23 - I know NOTHING about whelping in general and am VERY unsure of how to provide her with what she needs to feel comfortable and safe when the time comes.

She is VERY protective of her food and won't let any goat within 20 feet of it without barking and chasing them away so I am sure she WILL be super protective of her pups.  Will she need to be seperated from the goats? Will I need to keep the male dog seperate also?

I don't even know enough to ask the right questions.  Shocked(

Thanks for any help!

Denise 
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imalilbirdie
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« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2010, 08:54:11 AM »

Boy Denise, I'm glad to see this thread.  I too, didn't breed my females for the lack of this information, and know how.  I have nothing to offer you as in advise.  I've raised litters of puppies in my life, but not out of these dogs, so my uncertain knowledge, and ability to do it right, kept me from doing it.  Man, am I glad you posted this, and I will be sure to make this a sticky thread for all others who have this same question.  Thanks a bundle. Smiley
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~ Birdie ~
Rockytopsis
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« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2010, 08:58:52 AM »

The only thing I can think of is does she have a sheltered place where she can whelp and you can stand by if needed?

Here is some info from the GP Library, it starts at breeding and goes till pups are 9 weeks old.
http://www.sonic.net/~cdlcruz/pompier/First18Weeks.htm
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A & N Lazy Pond Farm, a small Boer Goat farm in East Tennessee
rgbdab
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« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2010, 09:26:14 AM »

thanks for the link - I have read it, but they bring the dog in the house to whelp and keep them inside for the first month which won't work for me.  And all the vet checks and xrays and such is too expensive.

I'd love to find that same detailed info but from someone that raises them outdoors and with less medical intervention.  (cheaper  LOL)

thanks again!

Denise 
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nancy d
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« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2010, 10:59:21 AM »

Good question. The only info I have is that when my pup was whelped the mama dog found a place somewhere near the goats.
The human could not get real close for awhile. She was Anatolian.
When pups started moving around they were interacting with the goats.
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Pinsprings
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« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2010, 11:04:33 AM »

I don't know anything about this either but I do know that the people who raised my Great Pyr always let the female whelp right in the goat shed with the father, goats, chickens and ducks present.
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Rockytopsis
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« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2010, 03:23:46 PM »

I knew that the link was a little over the top, but thought it might be helpful anyway. The folks I got my two GP's from let her whelp in one of their goat sheds, and they did keep the male away for a day or two but he insisted on seeing his pups and was fine with them being there. She had ten pups, but lost 5. We don't know if she layed on them, or if there was something wrong with them.

Knowing her due date and if you have a place to pen her away from the goats I think I would just fix her a place with lots of bedding like hay, shavings, something easy to clean up after it is over and just be there for her if she needs you.

Maybe when Candace gets time she will chime in.
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A & N Lazy Pond Farm, a small Boer Goat farm in East Tennessee
imalilbirdie
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« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2010, 09:09:37 PM »

Candace will be here..she's got the flu and isn't feeling well at all.  She'll be here as soon as she's feeling better.
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herdmomma
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« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2010, 07:05:58 AM »

Our Great Pyr always seemed to like our calf hut so she bed down in that and once I knew she was ready, I would close up the entrance and open the latch lid on the side where you would normally have the feed and water buckets hanging.. Moma could get in and out and puppies couldn't so they were protected from the goats getting in.  I would feed momma in there and when the pups started getting around real good about 3-4 weeks, I would open the entance up so they had access to the outside.  They stayed pretty close to the hut for security and momma always watched out for them and would chase the goats off if they got too close.  When the pups were around 8 weeks old they would start venturing farther out in the feild with mom and dad as the parents would start teaching them what to do.  When someone wanted a guard animal, I kept the pups here with some weanling kids  until they were about 4 months old then they would go to thier own farms.
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rgbdab
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« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2010, 08:53:00 AM »

thanks for the info -

about what age are the pups when the mom will stop chasing the goats away and start teaching the pups to protect them?

My female's behavior is already becoming more protective of herself and I am a bit worried she will actually hurt my goats as her time gets closer and she gives birth and has pups.  Does that happen?

Will goats hurt pups if she wasn't so protective? or is it just an instinct?

Who needs MY protection most? 


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herdmomma
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« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2010, 09:43:39 AM »

The mom will be less and less protective when the pups start wandering around on thier own and the pups will learn "hopefully" to stay out from under the goats and learn to respect them too.  Out of all 3 litters we had, not a single baby was injured by a goat, nor was a goat injured by the momma.  By having a space that momma can get into and the goats can't for those first several weeks will keep them safe and the goats will learn to respect that space when momma says back off.    I am only speaaking from the experiences I have had with the Gr Pyr breed, all breeds are different and all mothers can react differently too.
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Candace
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« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2010, 10:55:42 AM »

OK, I can tell you from the great pyr, not the anatol side, I tihnk the chasing the goats, comes from the more aggressive anatol side. My pyrs, the moms, I allow to pick thier birthing spots, if I lock them up, they will pine to get out an dpossibly interfer with their labor, so I watch them and monitor them.

When they pick a spot, they will keep the goats out of the spot, but they won't chase and attack them, mainly just make them allow a comfort zone......My girls don't usually start this behavior until about 2 weeks before when they start looking for a nesting spot, so if your girl is starting to do this now, it has to be the anatol, and yes, I'd be aware and watch for the safety of your goats....if all she's doing is hollering at them, you should be ok, but, if she's trying to chase and she's jumping on them, actually hurting them, then I'd be concerned. If she is, I'd start a reprimand, allow her to have a an area, say a few feet, around her that is her "safety", but if she chases past that point, yell at her "NO - enough!", and stop the chasing, as you would with a put. Let her know she has a right to want a safety area, but she can't be bullish about it....get firm if you have to, you are alpha.....

Now, WHEN she gives birth, and when mine give birth, yes, the goats can hurt them by accident, by stepping on them etc....I usually move them to a safety place where adult goats can't get to....I know there are ppl that don't move them, but that is just an accident waiting to happen, as I have known of pups with broken legs and hips.....all it takes is once, and it is devastating.....they don't mean to, but it can and does happen.....That is why I say adult goats, because I have even had my dams whelp in the hotbox and the pups grow up in the creep area, baby goats around,  baby goats aren't going to really hurt them, it's the weight on the adult does....they step on them they can hurt them, break a leg etc...but depending on if the mom picked an area the adults can't get to, or an area they can, I either move them or dont.....

As to when they start guarding and not yelling at the adult goats by the dam, once the pups are born, and are in a safe place, my moms never bark or chase the goats, as they aren't around the pups, she will even nurse a baby goat, so the chasing should not continue past the whelping....The pups start to venture out at about 5-6 weeks, and the mom still doesn't yell at the goats, at this age, the pups can maneuver (see pics pups are about 6 weeks) and start bonding, and no, the pups should NEVER be allowed to chase a baby or a goat. I am posting these pics to kinda show you what I've said, and to show you what you want to watch for....
As 3-4 weeks old pups, born in the nursery, I didn't move them as only the babies, and the *female* could get into the hotbox, the adult goats couldn't. This kind of exposure is excellent.


At about 5 weeks, they are coming out with the kids, again, never chasing, just spending time with them, NEVER allow them to chase them (you shouldn't have to reprimand them, as mom and dad should, but do reprimand IF you need to!)


At 6 weeks, working, and always, as ever, calm with the goats...they are coming out of the hot box, like the above pic, but tend to stay close to the barn....


At about 7-8 weeks, they will venture further out....



Also, at about 8-9 weeks, they will KNOW what is going on, this pup is trying to assist in a birthing (It was funny, she did end up letting him stay), but until she calmed down, as she didn't mind the adult lgds, but wasn't sure of this young whippersnapper, he had to make himself even smaller....



Here is a pic, like I said, a good mom won't chase away a baby, even a goat baby...after they whilp....



Hope this helpS!
« Last Edit: February 28, 2010, 11:42:20 AM by imalilbirdie » Logged
rgbdab
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« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2010, 11:00:21 PM »

thank you!  very helpful, and adorable pup and kid pics!

I am going to digest the info.

On a seperate but related note, can an Lgd cause problems for a doe by pulling on the afterbirth while it is still hanging?  I always let it come out on it's own, but have noticed the dogs aren't that patient.  Can this cause a doe problems?

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imalilbirdie
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« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2010, 08:36:31 AM »

Yes, it can Denise, and you need to stop your dog from doing that.  The dog is only doing what nature tells it to do, "get rid of all the birthing evidence to keep preditors away.." but doing that can harm the doe, so you don't want that to happen. 
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~ Birdie ~
nboling
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« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2010, 10:06:49 PM »

A torn placenta can cause any animal to bleed out and die, so yes, it could cause problems.
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