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Topic: boer buckling with weak back legs **updated **  (Read 4013 times)
rgbdab
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« on: April 19, 2010, 06:31:38 PM »

Moose is a 10 week old boer kid, a single on his mom living with the herd.  No previous health issues but this morning I noticed his back legs seemed a bit wobbly when he was walking.  I didn't really think anything about it at the time and this evening it is worse.  He can still get up and walk but his back end will just colapse where he is sitting like a dog and then he will either get back up or just lay down there.
I have moved him and his momma in a small pen by the house so I can take care of him, but I don't have a clue whats wrong with him. 
Of course he could have been injured by a big goat or even a horse I suppose, but if it isn't an injury, what could it be?
What should I do?
« Last Edit: April 24, 2010, 02:58:31 PM by rgbdab » Logged

nancy d
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« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2010, 08:05:11 PM »

It could be an injury. When was the last time he was wormed?
Im dealing with a 14 mo old buck w/wobbly rear so Im interested in what others have to say about your situation.
Having him seperated for now is a good thing.
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Sally P
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« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2010, 08:16:42 PM »

i would get some thamine into him asap.  It is Vitamin B1 and if you don't have thamine, go to the nearest pharmacy and buy human Vitamin B1 tablests.  Crush them up, add a little water and give orally.  You can't overdose thamine--so give it often.
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imalilbirdie
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« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2010, 12:30:23 AM »

if you dose out thiamine then you need to enforce it with bcomplex too..Thiamine treatment is for polio or listeria..check his body temp..if it's below normal that's polio..if it's spiked or elevated that's listeria..

Polio..lots and lots of B1 (thiamine) every hour..bcomplex every 2 hours...biomycin given once to treat the secondary illness of polio and that's pneumonia..which he will get if he has polio.  Make certain he continues to drink and check for futher paralysis as time goes on..use as drawing of the neck in one direction or the other..blindness and so forth, staggering, gazing off in confusion.

Listeria..lots and lots of B1 (thiamine) every hour...bcomplex every 2 hours..penicillin both injected and orally..large doses to bypass the brain stem..Listeria attacks the brain stem..you have to get large doses of penicillin into their system.

With both you need to give electrolytes, you need to give a probiotic or cultured yogurts.  Both will show signs of paralyzing the animal.

I'm not saying what is wrong with him is Polio or Listeria..I'm just giving you the proper treatments for it.  With the symptoms you've given, there isn't enough there to say this is either one of them.

What's your selenium levels like?  Have you tried a dose of Vitamin E gel with selenium added?
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rgbdab
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« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2010, 06:10:22 AM »

Thanks alll

I just took his temp and it is 101.5

I gave him 2 100mg b1 (thiamine) tablets to be on the safe side just now, but about to take DH for cataract sx.

Will be back in a few hours.

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rgbdab
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« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2010, 11:41:00 AM »

what is 'lots and lots' of thiamine?  I gave 200mg this morning, so how much should I be giving every hour?  And how much b complex?

But his temp wasn't too low so I am not sure whats going on with him.
He still is nursing, eating feed and hay and getting around about the same as yesterday.  Would there be other symptoms if it is polio?  I have never had a case so just don't know.  Shocked(

So far I've only given him the 200 mg of thiamine once because my DH had surgery this morning and I just got back home.

What now?

Thanks,  Denise

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imalilbirdie
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« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2010, 11:56:33 AM »

How did your husbands surgery go?  I hope he's doing alright.

With the symptoms you've given, it doesn't sound at all like Polio or Listeria to me.  Polio..they won't eat, they won't drink, they stand with their heads down low, if they are still standing that is, they will attempt to walk with a staggering gait, heads hanging low, won't chew cud, just acting lethargic basically until the paralysis hits, and they loose use of their bodies..from head to toe.  That's later stages of it though..if it's caught early, a full recovery can be expected..if it's caught when the goat goes down, and beings drooling, eyes can't blink, and so forth, you've got a real battle on your hands to save them from it.

With Polio it comes on very fast, very quick, and you have to work quick.  This is why you need to dose the high doses of thiamine and bcomplex every hour to two hours. 

You say your boy is eating and drinking just fine..his body temp is what a degree low right?  That can come from your outdoor temps as well as illness's, so that's not drastic.  Polio will drop that body temp really quick.  To bring it up you need to give the whiskey/molasses/coffee mixture every 30 minutes.  You would also syringe warm molasses water into their bodys every 2 to 3 hours, giving electrolytes every hour of at least 1 to 2 cups.  They dehydrate very quick with polio.

When you are sure it's polio..you can NOT overdose the thiamine or the b-complex..on adult large breed goats, I've given as high as 15cc's orally of bcomplex and as high as 2500mg's of human pill form of thiamine (crushed mixed in warm molasses water and given orally)..it's the thiamine and b-complex that will save them from Polio.  The body temp has to be monitored every 30 minutes to an hour..watched very closely. 

Your boy sounds like an injury to me.  Is there any swelling at this point?  Is he grinding his teeth any?  Is he chewing cud?  Rumen sounds ok? 

Did you try the Vit E gel w/selenium?  What's your selenium levels like there?
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rgbdab
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« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2010, 02:01:08 PM »

I appreciate the reply Birdie.  That is great info.  And after reading more of the symptoms it doesn't sound like either illness.

So I am thinking it must be more like an injury, maybe to his back. Shocked(
 I am hoping it is not more than a pinched nerve.

The day before a bunch of his herd got under the fence into the neighbors pasture (LGD had dug a hole) and I went out to see where they got out before I brought them back and they all ran down the fence line thinking perhaps I was going to feed them in the middle of the afternoon, and they dove under the fence en mass.  He could have been caught up in that "little stampede" but I didn't see any of them down or hear any hollers, but it's all I can think of.

I have checked his legs and they seem fine, no swelling or heat.  He doesn't limp when he walks but they will go out on him suddenly.  I've seen him walk 20 feet like normal and then his back legs just buckle.

It was chilly and still dark when I check his temp this morning so I think it was normal.

I'm going out to check on him now.

any more advice is appreciated.

Thanks, Denise
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rgbdab
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« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2010, 03:33:15 PM »

I just checked his temp again.  Warm, sunny afternoon and his temp is 103.2 so still normal.

Does that rule out polio and listeria completely? 

He is the same - laying around alot but gets up to go nurse or to follow his mom at times.  Saw him urinate and poop and both appear normal.

I am afraid he has hurt his back so I guess it's off to the vet for an xray to see. 

more $$$$$$   Shocked(

my DH's surgery went well, this was his second eye to have cataract removal and he is happy to see better.
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pearplum
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« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2010, 02:18:52 AM »


 At his sort of age I would be a bit concerned that he is showing symptoms of White Muscle disease caused by selenium deficiency. Has he had a Bo-Se shot?
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imalilbirdie
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« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2010, 06:21:59 AM »

I agree Sue, his age tells me "white muscle disease" as well.  That's the first thing that came to my mind.  Denise, can you give him a BoSe shot or the Vit E gel w/selenium? 

Happy to hear your hubbies surgery went well.  When my mom had her eyes done years and years ago, she was elated over the difference it made in her vision.  Later, years down the road they did the lazer surgery on her eyes and she didn't even have to wear glasses any more.  That made her very happy.
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rgbdab
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« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2010, 08:52:06 AM »

I am so confused.

If it is a deficiency in selenium wouldn't it affect other kids- I have 10 around the same age as Moose.

I looked up my area a long time ago  because it seems many of you have had selenium deficiency issues with your goats and I'd never heard of it.
According to the map, my area is not deficient.

Are there in other symptoms with white muscle disease to be watching for?

I'll check the feed store, but since this isn't a deficient area I don't know if they will carry it.

But I appreciate all the ideass.  Thanks,  Denise
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pearplum
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« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2010, 10:15:40 AM »


 Like you Denise we live in an area where selenium levels seem OK so really all I know about a deficiency is what I've learned here on GB. However, from reading about it I believe it can vary in severity, some kids are just a bit stiff or shaky and others are in a lot of pain and unable to stand. I am also a bit puzzled as to why it might affect some kids and not others. Apparently a lot of selenium gets passed from mother to kid in the colostrum so any kid which didn't get it's fair share there would obviously be more at risk. I have also read that the heart can be affected and some kids will display pneumonia type symptoms as well but I don't think your little one is suffering anything like that is he?
If you can't get the BoSe locally would you be able to order it online as it does sound rather like that could be his problem.
 Sorry I can't be much help and I'm sure someone who has much more experience of this condition will be able to give you more helpful advice very soon.
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rgbdab
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« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2010, 11:18:11 AM »

mt local feed store doesn't have any BoSe or selenium gel or supplement of any kind.

And of course the feed store owner doubted that was the problem because we aren't deficient is selenium.  But he has steered me wrong before so I don't really trust his advice.
I guess I'll take him to the vet and see what they say.

I can't think of anythiong else to do.  Shocked(

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Sally P
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New Sharon, Maine


« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2010, 11:20:14 AM »

You mentioned that they scrambled under a fence the other day---I would think that he probably got stepped on during the chaos.  I would just leave him for a few days and see how it goes. 
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