HomeHelpLoginRegister

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
July 29, 2014, 03:51:17 PM

Login with username, password and session length
Search

News
WARNING: DO not EVER click on any link in any email to reset a password UNLESS you yourself requested it. Be safe on the internet. There are many scams out there. Phishing is one of them, no site, from banking to us here at Goatbeat will EVER send an email asking for you to click on a link and reset your password. SO NEVER click on a link and give out personal information.

Stats
44875 Posts in 3030 Topics by 813 Members
Latest Member: Capricorn
+  Welcome to Goat Beat!
|-+  Goat Beat; The Heart of What Keeps us Going
| |-+  Vet Clinic (Moderators: imalilbirdie, Candace, pearplum, nancy d, sweetgoats, Ace)
| | |-+  Please help with dosage of SMZ!
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 Print
Topic: Please help with dosage of SMZ!  (Read 4807 times)
Doug01
Bouncing Babies
**
Posts: 89


« on: August 03, 2010, 11:48:44 PM »

Hello everyone. I want to start by saying that I have made one other post in the past and you guys were very helpful and I have always found a lot of wonderful information on this forum and was hoping to pick your brains once again.
I have a 10 week old boer doeling that developed a nasty case of watery dairrhea about 5 days ago. I started her on Kao and Probios paste daily, well the Kao was at least 3 times a day. Her stool did slightly form up a little after 2 days of the Kao but went right back to a watery stool and she has become more letharigc and weak. I started giving her molasses water and syringes of baking soda mixed with water and she still was not getting any better. I am very suspicious of coccidia and am going to start a treatment of Corid (I do know all of the negative info about it but I am still chosing to treat with this because I believe it is either kill or cure with this baby) and SMZ. I am also giving her some Vitamin B-12 and B complex because her gums do look pale. I started SQ lactated ringers yesterday for dehydration and syringe fed her some comeback (an electrolyte solution for scours). I am going to look for some Thiamine tomorrow cause the vet I got the other meds from did not carry it.
The routine care she has received so far is: a deworming with Safeguard (only one dose because I did not realize that had to be given for 3-5 days in a row) on 7/1 and Cydectin pour-on orally on 7/21. I was somewhat battling a worm load in some of my goats so I am trying to hit the wormings hard. I am looking to do a course of Ivomec plus in the rest of them within the week and hopefully that will clear them up and we can start on a less intense worming regiment. She also received a dose of Cylence pour-on on both of those days. Her feed was spruced up slightly but not drastically about 1 week prior to the onset of the diarrhea. The change was just adding some minerals and Deccox (a cocci preventative) to her feed. Other than that she has just been with mom and doing well until this diarrhea bout.
The issue I need help with is what dosage SMZ to give this baby. The dosage on this forum was slightly confusing. I worked as a vet tech for almost 10 years so I am very familiar with dosing conversions. When I blew up the picture of the bottle it was a bottle of 960mg and it said to give 1 tablet for each 20lbs. That seems like an awful lot to give a goat so would you guys be able to clear up my confusion of the dosage by telling how many mg to give to an approx. 15lb goat and how many times a day. I got the 240mg oral suspension today. Any other suggestions you would have to help this baby would be great. Each morning I have held my breath to see if she is even alive. Thank you guys for any help you can give me.
Logged
pearplum
Herdmasters
Goat Genius
*****
Posts: 1449


The Lincolnshire Fens. England.


« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2010, 03:14:31 AM »


 Wow...sorry I can't help you with the dosage question because we have different names for meds over here and I'm not sure what SMZ is but, I must say that my first impression is that this little girl has had an awful lot of treatments in her short 10 week life!

 If she were mine, and this is just my personal thing and I know lots would disagree, I would give her system a complete break from all medication , just give her milk, clean water and plenty of hay and see what happens. My feeling is that the diarrhoea may just be no more than her body's way of getting rid of all the foreign substances  it has been trying to cope with at such a young age.  If she is still very loose why not try something simple and natural like blackberry leaves? We find the nature's own old remedies often work as well as anything pharaceutical and with far fewer nasty side effects.
Logged
imalilbirdie
Herdmasters
Goat Genius
*****
Posts: 17473


Southern Louisiana


« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2010, 06:38:14 AM »

I ran a search on this SMZ stuff..it is sulfamethoxazole & trimethoprim...it is "SMZ-TMP (trimethoprim/sulfa) in double strength (DS) form is an antibiotic used to treat susceptible bacterial infections in multiple species. It can also be used to treat certain infections with protozoa."

Not only have I not heard of that being used on a goat, I am not sure this is needed for this 10 week old baby.  No where in my research does it say it's safe for goats, and it stipulates strongly in all my research not to use it on a nursing or pregnant animal.  I don't believe this to be safe for this baby goat.

IF you fear this is cocci, a normal run of cocci med's (corid is not all that safe either..as you well know already), electrolytes and probiotics should be adequate treatment.

Now, since I have said all the above, I would strongly advise you to take this baby off all those harsh med's and take some Keopectate, mix it with your cocci treatment once per day..and continue giving plain Keopectate once every hour until the diarrhea starts to form a harder stool.  This may take several days.

If this baby is nursing it's mother, then you need to check your mom for illness as well.  Babies who are nursing are immune to these things through mothers milk..so has your mother been wormed properly?  IF not then start her on a worming regimen as well.  If you didn't run the 5 day course of safeguard or panacur wormer on your mom and and baby, then the single dose did them no good at all.  Wait 7 to 10 days and run that regimen on both.  With pale gums and eyelids they are already anemic and will need treatments to bring them out of that..if mom is fine then we'll treat the baby with infant vitamins for human children that contains Iron..if mom is not fine then we'll need to treat her with Red Cell say 6cc's once daily, or geritol 15cc's once daily..BUT this will pass through her milk and into her kid that is sick, so with the kid, give the baby 2cc's of geritol once daily if the kid is nursing mom. 

You have to quarantine the baby and mom from the others if you suspect cocci in this baby.  You will need to bed them down well, clean them daily and bleach the ground where they stay..the bedding will need to be burned, and any thing they touch will need to be bleach..(i.e. feed dishes, water buckets, barn walls, and fencing)..use a good sprayer, and spray it down well.  **note** you will need to pull mom and baby out of the area to do this, and not allow them back in until it's dried and aired out.
Logged

~ Birdie ~
Doug01
Bouncing Babies
**
Posts: 89


« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2010, 08:59:57 AM »

Thank you for your quick response and I'm glad to say that after her first round of treatments last night she is doing somewhat better. Her butt seems clear for now and she was a little interested in grain and hay which I did not allow her to eat the grain. She still is pale and weak but her hydration seems better.

I am slightly confused. From what I have read on this forum anytime a goat has been enemic or pale it seemed that vitamin B12 and B complex were recommended. Maybe I misinterpreted the posts and it was only meant to be given for adult goats. I will go ahead and discontinue the vitamin B's. As far as the SMZ, my vet actually prescribes a course of SMZ (antibiotic) along with the corid to treat cocci. At the point yesterday I was willing to try anything with this little girl. I find dosages for SMZ on this forum and it was in the goat vet book my vet was looking up but it was in injectable form but I will do a little more research into this drug before continuing it. She was so weak, dehydrated and pale and had not been receiving any medicine per say up to that point last night. She was just receving the Kao, probios, and electrolyte solution, I put the molasses in the electrolytes the day before yesterday to try to give her some pep if she getting low on her blood sugar since she was not eating at all. She had not been eating for a couple of days. Also, are you saying that you do not worm babies if there is a worm load in your herd? I generally wean babies at 8 weeks of age if they can be sold. I have given the entire herd a new regimen for the parasite problem and that seems to be under control. This baby is the only one that is sick.

If you could clear up some of my confusion I would greatly appreciate it and thanks again for your quick response and I will continue to research while waiting to hear back from someone.  Smiley

Bridget
Logged
imalilbirdie
Herdmasters
Goat Genius
*****
Posts: 17473


Southern Louisiana


« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2010, 09:51:01 AM »

Bridget;
Your b vitamins are fine to give at any time..it can be given for 4 days straight and then you need to stop and wait a few days before you start again.

Ok, you say you wean your babies at 8 weeks old..for Boer breeds, especially doelings, this is way, way too young.  Boer babies, need the milk to get the proper bone growth.  Boer's have to have the calcium to grow properly.  We never take a doeling from her mom..we leave them until mom weans them.  Doelings really need calcium.  They pack a lot of weight on those legs when they are bred and their bones grow so fast that they tend to loose density in their bones, being weaned that young. 

We NEVER wean a kid that isn't drinking lots of water on it's own, and eating at least 1 and 1/2 cups of grain twice daily.  At weaning time we worm them immediately while they still have mom's purities of her milk inside their system.  The milk from mom, encourages and builds their natural immune system, without that, they loose their immunity strength within 2 days of worming.  So when you wean a kid, you worm them and give them a good dose of b-vitamins (and we use fortified b-complex not b-12)

With what you've given in the Corid, the SMZ isn't needed, that's overdosing the antibiotic's..SMZ is a type of an antibiotic that also kills the good bacteria's in the body as well as the bad bacteria..your Corid also contains an antibiotic that is doing the same thing..so this babies immune system is very weak, and her good bacteria is totally destroyed.  To combat that, we will take that SMZ out of her regimen of treatment, and start her on probiotic's once daily and then cultured yogurts once daily..give the probitocis of a morning and the culture yogurts at night.  If we don't rebuild this babies good bacteria she's gonna die..she doesn't have mom's milk to help her, and she's on a cocci treatment that has been known to kill goats. 

I would take this baby and give her some milk from mom if you can.  I would give her electrolytes (a pint at least), several times a day.  I would treat her cocci with sulmet or albon (if you're absolutely sure this is cocci--you need a fecal to be certain), mixed with the keopectate once daily and then the keopectate plain every hour until the diarrhea stops.  Hydration is your key here, this baby is stripped of every thing..so we need to supplement the b vitamins (to stimulate her appetite and replace what's been stripped from her with the wormer and the cocci med's), we need to give her the infant baby vitamins with iron until her gums/eyelids turn pink again, and we need to keep her hydrated and out of the sunlight and harsh heat. 

I'm not trying to confuse you, or upset you, but this little gilr, if she were mine, this is exactly what I'd do for her.  I've never used SMZ, I never had a call for it.  I've only had one case of cocci on our farm..and that was in calves, not goats..but I've been a farmer all my life and had treated it back home in Missouri prior to moving to AR in cattle and some cases in the hogs..but never in my goats. 

What I am saying is the SMZ and the Cocci med's are not a good mixture in a baby this young.  Too much antibiotic will kill as quickly as the cocci will.
Logged

~ Birdie ~
Doug01
Bouncing Babies
**
Posts: 89


« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2010, 10:37:28 AM »

Thanks again Birdie for the advice I will definitely get the baby vitamins and discontinue the SMZ. I may have mislead you with the weaning thing. She is still in with her mother but has not been nursing or eating for several days and before that her mother didn't really let her nurse much (on a seperate note her and her mother are isolated from the rest of the herd). She was eating plenty of grain and hay before the diarhhea started but that stopped once she got sick. I have seen her drink small amounts of water throughout this diarrhea spell but I don't think she is drinking enough to sustain her hydration. Other than the corid and SMZ was the treatment I was doing prior to yesterday good for a goat with diarrhea that is not eating? I was giving electrolytes, Kao, Probios, and molasses water to see if it would clear up before I started any drastic measures.

I did try to get a fecal before I left for the vet yesterday but she hadn't went yet so I couldn't test her stool and with the heat anything in the pen was dried up or too old. Is there anything else you can think of that would  be going on with this baby. She was happy and healthy, a little on the smaller side, but thriving before this diarrhea spell. Talking to the vet and my sister, who has raised goats for 20 years, we came to the conclusion that she may have coccidia and to treat for it. If you have any other ideas of what could be going on with her I would greatly appreciate it. I just want to see her get better.

I am always looking to learn how to better take care of my goats since I am relatively new to raising goats and getting as much information and opinions is always helpful so please do not feel like you have upset me. My main focus is to make sure that I am doing what I need to for my animals so they have a happy comfortable life while in my care.
Thanks,
Bridget
Logged
Sally P
Goat Genius
*****
Posts: 8938


New Sharon, Maine


« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2010, 10:43:46 AM »

You mentioned that she (the kid) had stopped nursing several days before this bout of scours.  Did you check the mother's udder?  It could well be that the udder was slightly congested and the baby couldn't get any milk.  If she (the baby) started eating more grain than she had been eating previously, then the scours could well be from that--too much grain. 
Out of curiosity, why are the doe and baby still separated from the rest of the herd?  That baby is certainly more than old enough to be in with the other goats. 
Logged
dragonlair
Goat Genius
*****
Posts: 8153



« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2010, 04:46:33 PM »

The SMZ is what the vet I use when I have to prescribes for my goats. Its a safe antibiotic. Thats the only thing I will take for myself.
Logged

DragonLair Farm and Kennel in Central Maine with Nubians, Lamanchas and Oberhasli. Of course, combinations of 2 or more breeds happens also.
Doug01
Bouncing Babies
**
Posts: 89


« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2010, 05:33:10 PM »

I checked the mother's bag and it was perfectly normal. She was still nursing but not as much because she is older before the diarrhea started. Then she stopped nursing totally after the diarrhea started. It was a good thought about the udders cause it is not something that I thought about and will keep in mind for the future. I have them seperated from the herd because of the suspicion of coccidia and thought that would be good.

I do have another question in regards to cocci, I was always under the impression that as it has been said goats have a certain amount of cocci in their gut normally and when a stressful situation presents itself or cramped quarters are involved the animal is weakened and the cocci can take over presentlng the symptoms. I am confused if that is how cocci is brought on, how it is necessarily contagious.

If someone could enlighten me a little more on the subject of cocci, I would appreciate it.

Thanks
Logged
nboling
Guest
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2010, 06:01:19 PM »

I know this doesn't help much, but the dog dosage of SMZ-TMP is 13 mg per lb.  So the 960 mg pills would be the correct dosage for about a 70 lb dog.  It takes a lot of mg of this stuff.  I still don't know what the goat dosage would be, but a lot of things require larger doses in goats.
Logged
nboling
Guest
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2010, 06:03:11 PM »

SMZ's also come in a 480 mg tablet, so maybe the picture is wrong.
Logged
Oregoats
Goat Genius
*****
Posts: 1750



« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2010, 06:26:01 PM »

  I hate to be a damp dishrag, but here is my two cents worth.

Doug01, you are correct in using the Corid and a sulfa. The Corid is NOT
an antibiotic, it is a coccidioastat. That means that it works to control the
numbers of cocci in the goat. 
 
  The sulfa is used to prevent/treat any secondary infection the goat may get from being weakened by the cocci. Sulfas do, however, affect the good bacteria in a goat
rumen. I have used either yogurt (with live cultures) or Probiotics after a round of
sulfas. So far have had good results. This helps rebuild the bacteria in the rumen.

  Cocci is present in all goats, but baby goats have not built up enough tolerance/
immunity to it to keep the cocci from causing damage. You can put all your kids
on cocci prevention, but that is another thread.  Stress causes the goats immune
system to be even less able to tolerate the cocci, thus you get a proliferation of
the cocci. It is "contagious" just in the same way that parasites/worms are. They
are passed in the manure of the goat and picked up that way.

  If you are seeing improvement with the treatment plan you have implemented,
stick to it. Don't start and stop, that is worse than not doing anything.

 Hope this helps and your little one is doing better.

 
Logged

Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth- Albert Einstein
boerbaby
Caprine Guru
****
Posts: 398



« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2010, 06:31:17 PM »

From the "Fias Co Farms" website:

Drug Name:

Trimethoprim/Sulfaethoxazole - Rx
Trimethoprim/Sulfaiazine - Rx
 Brand Names:

TMP/SDZ
TMP/SMX
TMP/SMZ
Tribrissen
Bactrim
Septra
Cotrim
Di-Trim
 

For treatment of:
A broad spectrum antibiotic and sulfa combination with a wide spectrum of activity against gram negative and positive organisms. For scours, pneumonia and misc. other infections.
Goat dose: Oral
30mg/kg (665mg/50 pounds) twice daily.
One 960mg tablet per 70-75 pounds twice daily. (The most common tablets are 960mg.)
Milk withholding time: 8 days
Notes:
There is some question about the oral use of trimethoprim in ruminants. Some thoughts are that it may significantly degraded in the rumen.
Logged

Kertz Farm
Doug01
Bouncing Babies
**
Posts: 89


« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2010, 07:24:25 PM »

Thank you Oregoats and boerbaby for the dosage and reassurance that I was not actually doing more harm in trying to help than if I would have left her alone.  Smiley I am the type of person that will do whatever I can to treat a problem, as long as it is not going to break the bank, versus just let nature takes it course. I do however believe somethings are better left alone. After some thinking, I decided to stay with the course of treatment that I began yesterday (the vitamin B-12, B complex, SMZ, and CoRid) and the supportive therapy that I was doing prior to added the medicines to her treatment (priobiotic paste, molasses water, electrolytes, and Kao). I will note that I have not noticed any of the diarrhea present around her rectum since yesterday afternoon so I have held off on the Kao today. I don't know if the Kao finally started working or with her not eating she just doesn't have anymore stool left in her. I just gave her the evening treatments and she nursed off her mom for just a moment (lying down cause she is still weak) and was nibbling on some hay we gave her so I am hoping she will start turning around. Thank you again and I will keep on trying with her.
Bridget
Logged
Oregoats
Goat Genius
*****
Posts: 1750



« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2010, 09:22:36 PM »

 I know that many are firm believers in the molasses water, but molasses can
also cause stomach upset/loose stool in a goat that is not in top condition to
begin with. My girls won't touch it anyway and they get no feed with molasses
in it either. If you are giving her the probios and electrolytes, that should be
fine. Might try offering her the live culture yogurt. My girls love it and will suck
it out of the syringe.
  Keep up the good work, we are all pulling for her and you.
 
Logged

Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth- Albert Einstein
Pages: [1] 2 Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  

Powered by SMF 1.1.19 :: SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines
Amber design by Bloc | XHTML | CSS
candlewick